Author Topic: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder  (Read 679 times)

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2017, 08:12:25 AM »
Hi Mike, yeah I was joking, a metaphor for all the crazy nonsense on YouTube. However, if we wait long enough, someone will try it.  (7+" (7+" (7+"

Regards,
Richard

Hi, there are a lot of idiots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zbF6RyCsIE

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2017, 01:31:54 PM »
50 grs/60grs of Triple 7 with a bullet/ball  is totally fine with a corrected arbor in a well appointed Walker.
Hawg is correct.

Mike
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Offline mike116

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2017, 04:03:35 PM »

Hi, there are a lot of idiots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zbF6RyCsIE

Regards,
Richard

Yes and most of them have moved to Colorado.

Offline prof marvel

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2017, 07:50:35 PM »
GREETINGS -
I just got finished corresponding witht the fellow.He is a professional knife & swordsmith with a good grasp of metallurgy.
he wrote that he had considered Red Dot due to "small loads" having similar pressure curves as smokeless *in shotguns*, and
how it worked well in very small calibers such as .32 S&W breaktops .

I shared pressure curve graphs and he allowed as how he was switching to Trail Boss lol ....

Now I am offering the info on the questionable metallurgy of some ASM cylinders .... and he is considering machining his own cylinder of 4140 :-)

yhs
prof marvel

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2017, 09:56:16 PM »
Perhaps you should give the link to our hallowed forum?
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline prof marvel

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2017, 01:14:03 AM »
Perhaps you should give the link to our hallowed forum?

Captain, My Captain -
terribly sorry for the emission ommision it slipt my poor little grey cells -
he joined over at CAS City...

His walker thread can be found here
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,60010.msg714140.html#msg714140

and his remmy threads here
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,57433.msg713900.html#msg713900
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,60011.msg714138.html#msg714138
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,60023.msg714173.html#msg714173

whilst most of our discussion was via PM, here are the operant bits concerning
powders and pressure curves that I passed along:

....
snip------------------------
my big concern was seeing that you were considering Red Dot, one of the fastest powders.

if one goes here, and check page 10
http://alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog/alliantpowder-reloadersguide/2014_Alliant_Powder_Catalog.pdf

we find red dot is one of the fastest burning powders, while unique is one of the slowest non-magnum powders.

Trailboss or even Clays is preferred in large cases since they are more "fluffly"
and less liable to unfortunate results of small ammounts of powder in cavernous cases....

The pressure curves are also important

Here is pressure curve data for Red Dot vs Pb powder


here is red dot vs green dot vs unique


here is an example of "smokeless" vs BP



Anecdotal data indicates Red Dot is extremetely fast burning and unforgiving. we can see here:

http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates%20-%202015-2016.pdf

that with fastest powder being No1, Red Dot is No.7 , whilst TrailBoss is No.21 and Unique is No.31

the load range for red dot is quite narrow for .45 colt and a 200 gr lead bullet
Red Dot From 7.0 grains to 7.6 grains

compared to unique
Unique From 8.0 grains to 12.2 grains

And the upper range is considered " Ruger Only" ie magnum loads.

As an alternative, if you can get it you might consider a much slower powder like 4831-

we see over here, a similar size case ( Socom 458) but with a much heavier bullet shows comparative
pressures, and you *definitely* want to stay under 12k psi



(taken from here http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123650)

It is important to understand the trick is not only "peak pressure" of smokeless but also a slower rise or impulse and  "longer burning curve" like BP
or stick with BP or subs when possible.
endsnip------------------------------------------------------------

hope this helps
your humble servant
prof marvel
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 11:28:19 AM by prof marvel »

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2017, 04:24:21 AM »
I get the impression he plans on using smokeless, but then he also says he's "saving for a Kirst". Unless he's planning on using Trail Boss, he's asking for trouble. Especially with no barrel. Red Dot is gonna put a 6 inch rooster tail of flame out front and it will kick like a mule without the barrel weight to steady it.
Bad move, IMHO.

Hi Kirk, the cap ignition system is not suitable for properly igniting smokeless powder. I remember seeing some reports of where a person needed to seriously over load TrailBoss to get any performance at all. We all know how smokeless powder burns when unconfined, slow. It takes a good kick and probably a good crimp (or heavy bullet) to get smokeless to ignite properly as a propellant in firearms. I remember testing Blackhorn 209 (mostly a smokeless powder) in my 1858 Remmy and found that even with a BP booster did little, see thread starting here:
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,6410.msg102886.html#msg102886

Even in rifles, Blackhorn 209 need the ignition of a shotgun primer. While some trying smokeless powder in a C&B may feel the load safe, the first time there is an intense ignition, the cylinder becomes a hand grenade.

Metallurgy expert or not, that guy is not a internal ballistician and may fair better setting off cherry bombs in his navel.  (7+" (7+"

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline AntiqueSledMan

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2017, 04:43:46 AM »
Richard,

I got a whole different meaning on this, I think he was originally planning on using the percussion cylinder for the cartridge conversion but decided it might be too soft. Then decided a follow up plan to go with a Kirst or build one himself using 4140 round stock. If using any smokeless powder, I would not use the original cylinder. I don't think he plans on using percussion ignition.

AntiqueSledMan

Offline prof marvel

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2017, 11:37:24 AM »
Richard,

I got a whole different meaning on this, I think he was originally planning on using the percussion cylinder for the cartridge conversion but decided it might be too soft. Then decided a follow up plan to go with a Kirst or build one himself using 4140 round stock. If using any smokeless powder, I would not use the original cylinder. I don't think he plans on using percussion ignition.

AntiqueSledMan

That is correct sledman -
there have been many hundreds of folks doing there own conversions using the existing italian cylinder, or a an identical replacement.
those with any machining experience have been succesful for the most part, and nearly all, like this fellow,  had done due diligence
and/or asked questions ahead of time. in my correspondence he rerlated that he had successfully done other work and had good luck
with specific reduced loads of specific  powdersin other , (albeit extremely small) calibers and cases, and had put forth the conjecture
that those powders "might" scale up.

prior to our correspondence he ahd decided to use TB, and after our chat h, having seen the pressure curves I stole from elsewhere, he
confirmed that TB would be considerabley safer.

yhs prof marvel

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2017, 07:01:44 PM »
Great data, PM! FWIW I load 9.5gr Unique in my .44 magnum rounds and it's no Sunday picnic to torch them off in a stainless Super Blackhawk, "reduced load" or not.
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline Krylandalian

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2017, 03:56:37 PM »
Seems the  'hotrodding'  of the Walker is a personal interest thing.

Isn t  the risk with smokless, compressing the projo down onto the powder, where there is no expansion room between the projo and the initial ignition?  Whereas blackpowder needs the projo compressed down upon it?

The steel construct etc, of the firearm not being the concern?  Afterall, are nt  modern BP guns made with the highest grade firearms steel just like a modern gun?

Meaning: Would a shell casing with the bullit compressed down upon the smokless powder, fired in a modern firearm cause the same risk of explosion etc?

Offline Hawg

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2017, 04:07:07 PM »
Great data, PM! FWIW I load 9.5gr Unique in my .44 magnum rounds and it's no Sunday picnic to torch them off in a stainless Super Blackhawk, "reduced load" or not.

I used Unique when I first started reloading. I was using 12.5 grains with a 255 grain Kieth in a Ruger SBH but I only loaded 50 rounds and threw the rest of the powder away. It was damn sure an accurate load tho if it just hadn't been so nasty.

Offline Hawg

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2017, 04:09:45 PM »
The steel construct etc, of the firearm not being the concern?  Afterall, are nt  modern BP guns made with the highest grade firearms steel just like a modern gun?

No, they are not. They are relatively soft. With the conversion cylinders which are made from tool steel you still can't get over bp pressures because the frames can't take the beating.

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2017, 08:02:59 PM »
Well, actually, you can shoot SAMMI spec ammo in the Kirst conversions. They say under 1000 fps but I don't know of any standard 250gr loadings that exceed 1000 fps. That does exceed the bp only pressure though. The frames are plenty strong enough as a support system for the cylinders.

Mike
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Re: Walker conversion with "bp only" cylinder
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2017, 08:06:37 PM »
Well, actually, you can shoot SAMMI spec ammo in the Kirst conversions.
And that's because the cylinder takes the brunt of the pressure spike, of course.
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"