Author Topic: Cap Sucking Colts  (Read 19288 times)

Offline soundguy

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2016, 06:10:33 AM »
Has anyone had any success with anything other than a cap rake for preventing cap sucking? I'm going to avoid the JB Weld hammer trick but wouldn't be opposed to trying brazing to fill in the groove.

Maybee try something like silver solder as it is even easier and less heat than brazing, and easilly reversed.

Offline soundguy

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2016, 06:13:57 AM »
They've only been mildly problematic for me as well. Others here seem to be plagued with it. I attirbute most of my good fortune to the Remington #10 caps.

This past weekend when I was out shooting i had only 1 cap hang problem out of the following colts:

1847, 1851, 1860 and an 1851/60 mutt

The mutt appearred to have a cap fall down between the hammer and frame.   I popped the wedge out and slid the bbl and cyl off a bit and got it loose, and back together.. whole ordeal maybee less than a minute.  Ran a couple/few cyls thru each of those as well as a few thru an 1858 and a revolver carbine.

( no wonder I ran out of powder and balls sunday.  :)    )

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2016, 08:19:59 AM »
Has anyone had any success with anything other than a cap rake for preventing cap sucking? I'm going to avoid the JB Weld hammer trick but wouldn't be opposed to trying brazing to fill in the groove.

Maybee try something like silver solder as it is even easier and less heat than brazing, and easilly reversed.

Hi sound, last year I purchased a wire welder from Harbor Freight expecting to fill in Colt hammer slots with steel. Only yesterday did I use the welder for the first time repairing an 1858 carbine hammer face. The person I bought the carbine from filed off the lower portion of the hammer face with the intent that it would fit better in the cylinder safety slots. The unintended consequence was that the hammer didn't completely cover the cap where blowback gas and cap parts would hit one in the face on firing. I built up the hammer face with the wire welder steel and filed the hammer face into the correct shape. While not a wire welder virgin anymore, filling in the Colt hammer face slots will require more skill than I currently have. Your comment on using silver solder may be the easy perfect long lasting solution.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2016, 09:12:00 AM »
Since this seems to possibly be a modern problem (I don't know) the "modern" and reversible fix so far seems to be the cap post. This mod should allow the "keep it factory" crowd somewhat happy because:

- it allows the use of the safety pins
- filling the safety slot in the hammer face isn't "original"
- it keeps the fragments from falling into the action

as a plus:
- it brings "reliability" to the revolver
- it's at least one of the ingredients that gives the ability for a cap& ball revolver to be fanned (something a lot of folks have never seen or heard of) which is a testament to how well the mod works.

  If "originality" is what one is after, keeping the safety pin/pins operational and yes , the " often discussed " arbor fitment/ fix  are things that all 1st gens had as "orig. equipment " (those that had the safety pin or pins).

So, the way I see it, if you're going to do anything as a "solution" to "our" problem but want to keep the revolver in question as " close to stock as possible " ( meaning it should have a correct arbor setup and the "safety devices" in place), a cap post would allow all the "originals" to stay while adding reliability to the mix. (Hawg, the only time you see it is when it's cocked ( even thought you'd know it's there .  .  .  . I know .  .  . lol)).              It's a dilemma .  .  .  .  .  . 

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:39:14 AM by 45 Dragoon »

Offline old fogey

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2016, 10:26:44 AM »
Meybe keep a "filled" hammer (one with the safety pin slot welded up of "JB Welded" up,) and another hammer fer when yer not shooting it (have ta take it apart to clean it anyway after ya shoot - 'course the 'before ya shoot' could be a annoyance [ta me anyway, course being "h-c" ain't me anyway -] that way you'd be "good ta go" at the range and could still be "h-c" on display)!
                                                     JMHO, fer what it's worth.

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2016, 10:54:25 AM »
Well, you'd be right fogey if you think that is a good "fix". I don't particularly think it's a fx at all because, it does nothing to keep the frags from the action. The cap frags that tear away and or just fall away are more likely than not going to fall into the action. Also, the whole point of loading all 5 or 6 is lost because you have the " wrong" hammer installed.
 Another problem (for me anyway) is a tuned revolver means a whole different hammer probably isn't going to work and may not function at all!  (So maybe it's just a display hammer? Lol)   If swapping the trigger and bolt screw pins can interrupt the function of a tuned revolver, a hammer may be quite the headache!    Good thinkin though fogey!!

Mike
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2016, 11:46:29 AM »
Hi Mike, what concerns me about the cap rake is when used with conversion cylinders. If the hammer slot needs to be opened up to accommodate the cap rake, it creates a situation where the firing pins (contact area) of conversion cylinders get smacked harder than necessary. That may cause premature firing pin distortion.

BTW, I noticed that even the cap rake didn't keep bushhippie from having cap jams. I have fired thousands and thousands of rounds using the 1858 and never had a cap jam issue. All my Colts are problematic for cap jams, the smaller the Colt style revolver the more the cap sucking. The only Colt style revolvers that I own that don't have cap sucking issues have a hammer groove that has the slot edges "melted" round. That seems to keep the caps from being pulled off the nipples. IMO this is an observation that should be useful to Colt users, taper and round the hammer slot.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2016, 12:33:08 PM »
Richard,
 The slot need not be opened up for the cap post so there's no need for concern.
Also, the first gens didn't have rounded slots on the hammer face.  The one I have in my possession has sharp corners (though it is a little more narrow). The narrowness of the slot may be key. I'll get a pic. If that's the case, welding up and recutting a narrow slot would be the ticket. (Would make my job easier!!)

You'll notice that "Cap jams" happen when the hammer isn't thumbed back forcefully (also, may have been "home made" caps). You'll also notice that no cap jams happen while fanning.  If "Alice" goes to the range, "she" may have an occasional problem. If you'll "cock it like a man", it'll be fine (lol)!
  I believe our own  "Fingers" shot a pair of '61s 160+ rounds each with no jams.

Given the results I hear, less jams will occur with a cap post over a filled in slot.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2016, 09:23:03 PM »
Good points, Mike.
The problem with JB Weld (as Mike Beliveau likes to use) is that it's not "weld" (as the name implies) at all...it's simply a two part structural adhesive (epoxy). They can and do work fine in a static environment. But add oil, grease, fouling, heat metal-to-metal contact and percussive explosion and your chances of longevity decrease dramatically. There; I said it....
The problem with silver solder is that it's solder, therefore tin and lead. Sure, it's hard lead, but if you put a bead of silver solder on your vise anvil and whack it with a hammer, it's gonna turn into a thin, hard flat disc. Much moreso than a bead of braze material.
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline StrawHat

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2016, 05:07:24 AM »
I like the cap rake and have it in several revolvers.  They work.  Another solution that works is to get to the supply house and order a lifetime supply of whatever cap you want to use.  If that is one tin, great, if that means you are buying a pallet of percussion caps, well, buy it.  When you get home buy yourself as many cones as you need to fit to all of the cylinders you will be using, plus about 20 more.  Buy them larger than will accept the caps.  Now, the fun part.  You need to turn the cone to be a snug fit with the cap. A very snug fit.  Not tight, but snug.  You will then fit the cones to the cylinders and when used, the caps will stay in place after firing.  You may have to pry them off but I have not encountered that problem as most times the caps split a bit and come off easily.  The snug fitting cap also helps keep moisture out of the chamber.

Yes, it is a bit of fun doing this but it is more historically correct than the rake.

Kevin
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Offline old fogey

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2016, 06:18:36 AM »
45 Dragoon:
                  "* * * . . . Well, you'd be right fogey if you think that is a good "fix". . . .* * *"

Wouldn't count as a "fix", more like a "work-around" Mike! Can't say it'd be a "fix" cause nothin' be "fixed" other than having a "hysterically correct" gun to look at when ya ain't shooting it, complete with period correct cap jam making mechanism fault and flaws uncorrected, just my opine (and - just like buttholes - we knowed every a-hole comes complete with one)!
                                 :-H
                                         (Yep, thar be mine!)!
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 06:20:36 AM by old fogey »

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2016, 08:12:43 AM »
Hi, as the Captain points out, regular lead/tin solder is probably too soft to use to fill the Colt hammer slot. Brazing is a good answer, but the high temperature requires a gas/air torch and probably affects the hammer metal. IMO there is a compromise, use a lower flow point solder than 15% silver solder. I ordered this 6% silver solder and will give it a try:

http://www.amazon.com/Forney-38116-Silver-Fluxing-6-Percent/dp/B000PSB6KU?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

The application temperature is 400-700-degree F and the tensile strength is 20kPSI. This my be the perfect Colt cap sucking solution?

Time will tell.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2016, 08:59:38 AM »
Hi, the 6% silver solder is due to arrive today. In preperation I took two extra parts Pietta 1851/1860 hammers and used a dremel to clean off the bluing and any case hardening. This is a raw hammer:



This is the cleaned up hammer ready for silver solder:



May get to do the soldering tonight.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2016, 02:50:59 PM »
Hi, the 6% silver solder arrived and easily filled the hammer slot. The solder isn't as hard as I thought it would be and filed into shape without any effort. The filled hammer slot:



I'm going to give my wire welder a try filling the gap of the other hammer slot. Maybe with some additional practice I will become proficient with the wire welder.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2016, 04:40:28 AM »
Hi, this last weekend my son-in-law brought out his Pietta 1851 revolver that I gave him for Christmas. I had a number of cylinders already preloaded for him to use. It didn't take but the 2nd or 3rd shot for him to experience cap sucking. Caps stuck to the hammer, and caps falling in between the hammer and frame were experienced. A little training on the wrist twist, or overhead hammer operation minimized the cap sucking. After shooting was completed, I asked him how he like his 1851. He said shooting the 1851 was fun, but not 100% reliable as his 1858 Remington. Then I asked him which is the most attractive revolver, the 1851 or 1858. The 1851 was his preferred best looking and fun to shoot revolver.

I offered to replace his 1851 hammer with a replacement hammer where the hammer slot is filled in. His decision was to keep the hammer slot so that the Colt safety feature remained intact. With his current skill level, I couldn't disagree.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!