Author Topic: Square Trigger Guard  (Read 7648 times)

Offline StrawHat

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2015, 04:26:48 AM »
Hi StrawHat, I like that white grip pistol!  L@.

They are what I like to call "American Ivory" aka elk stag grips with the bark removed.

Kevin
Knowledge carried to the grave unshared, is wasted.

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Offline sourdough

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2015, 12:14:34 PM »
...Uberti's are all five shot. Pietta's are all six shot and are actually nothing more than a short barreled 51. The Uberti uses the 49 frame with a rebated cylinder as per originals...

I was not aware that Uberti made a 5 shot 31.  All of the 31s I have seen, Uberti or ASM, are 6 shot.  Please, post a photo.

Kevin

ASM 1848 Pocket .31 5-shot 5-3/4" Barrel w/Load Lever Date Code XIX/1963 Serial Number 228.

Imported By Replica Arms El Paso Texas.

Jim











« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 12:32:26 PM by sourdough »

Offline StrawHat

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2015, 03:35:23 PM »
Jim,

Thank you, is there enough room in the triggerguard for your trigger finger?  On the two ASM squarebacks I have, there is not really enough room.

Kevin
Knowledge carried to the grave unshared, is wasted.

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Offline scooby

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2015, 06:14:09 PM »
...Uberti's are all five shot. Pietta's are all six shot and are actually nothing more than a short barreled 51. The Uberti uses the 49 frame with a rebated cylinder as per originals...

I was not aware that Uberti made a 5 shot 31.  All of the 31s I have seen, Uberti or ASM, are 6 shot.  Please, post a photo.

Kevin

ASM 1848 Pocket .31 5-shot 5-3/4" Barrel w/Load Lever Date Code XIX/1963 Serial Number 228.

Imported By Replica Arms El Paso Texas.

Jim







That is a real dandy sourdough!!!!, and a Texas firm Replica Arms to boot. I would be tickled pink to own one like that. Now I say this with full respect and with sincere intentions, and correct me if I am wrong, but since it does have a load lever, it would be considered an 1849, as the 1848 modle never had load levers.

Here is an 1849 cousin to yours, but a later version. Also an ASM made in 1980. This one is the six shot version and was made with a plain cylinder and round trigger guard. I even use the brass mould to cast the round balls and conicals for it. They shoot just fine, as do the 36 and 44 calibre balls and conicals from the brass moulds that I use for my Replica Arms Police and 1860 modles.



« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 06:33:13 PM by scooby »

Offline Hawg

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2015, 09:19:30 PM »
My bad I was thinking about the .36 police models.

Offline sourdough

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2015, 01:05:27 PM »
Jim,

Thank you, is there enough room in the triggerguard for your trigger finger?  On the two ASM squarebacks I have, there is not really enough room.

Kevin

Barely, and I have skinny, boney fingers. The Pocket models are really small compared to an 1851 Navy squareback, in all dimensions.

I have read that Sam Colt originally introduced the squareback guard for the 1851 Navy due to a business acquaintance, a Col. Talcot of the Ordnance Department of the U. S. Army, who had a fondness for the squareback guard. It seems that Colt decided to go with it on the 1851 Navy 1st and 2nd Models in order to curry favor with Talcot and for a contract to supply these pistols for the Army. When Talcot was convicted of some charge in an Army courts-martial, Colt stopped manufacturing the squareback guard. (" '51 Colt Navies", Nathan L. Swayze, pg.29)


Quote
That is a real dandy sourdough!!!!, and a Texas firm Replica Arms to boot. I would be tickled pink to own one like that. Now I say this with full respect and with sincere intentions, and correct me if I am wrong, but since it does have a load lever, it would be considered an 1849, as the 1848 modle never had load levers.

Here is an 1849 cousin to yours, but a later version. Also an ASM made in 1980. This one is the six shot version and was made with a plain cylinder and round trigger guard. I even use the brass mould to cast the round balls and conicals for it. They shoot just fine, as do the 36 and 44 calibre balls and conicals from the brass moulds that I use for my Replica Arms Police and 1860 modles.



Flayderman's Guide (5th Edition, pg. 78) in the section "Colt Model 1848 Baby Dragoon Revolver" states: "manufactured 1847 through 1850 ... 5-shot on all variations ... barrel lengths of 3", 4", 5", and 6" ... with or without attached loading levers (rare with lever)."  Pictured is a 6" with loading lever, rectangular stop slots, serial number range approximately 11600 to 15500.

I'm assuming Flayderman got those serial numbers from P.L. Shumaker's 1957 book "Colt's Variations of the Old Model Pocket Pistol 1848 to 1872" (pg. 30-32) wherein Shumaker states that exact serial number range as the "Transition Period" between the 1848 and the 1849 Pockets, when Colt (never one to waste anything, I have read) was using up parts made for the 1848 in conjunction with the newer 1849 parts as kind of a mix-and-match situation until all of the 1848 parts were used up.

Very nice cased set (drool) with conicals to boot! Much nicer wood than mine. I can tell at a glance that your pistol is an ASM because of the shallow shoulders for the rear two TG screws, but I've only seen that aberration on the Pockets and not on the larger ASM replicas. However, not all ASM Pockets have the shallow shoulders. Go figure! Ephraim Kibbey (THR BP forum) collects ASM catalogs and is a fine source for pics and info from his catalogs. Original Colt 1849 Pocket .31 pistols were made in 6-shot versions from 1859 to nearly the end of production; they were popular with some folks, but the 5-shot still outsold them (Shumaker).

Yours appears to be a nicer/better built pistol than mine (first year of production: 1963) If you can do me a favor, please post a pic of your rammer/plunger disassembled from the pistol. I am gonna think it will be much better than this terrible job when ASM was just cranking out pistols to folks that probably had very little exposure to C&B firearms and just wanted a copy.

Jim










Offline scooby

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2015, 06:41:33 PM »
I will be happy to get you a picture or two of the plunger. Expect it very soon. Thanks for all of the info you gave me. When I post the pictures, I am going to include a question for you regarding identification of both an 1849 and an 1849.

Offline scooby

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2015, 08:37:41 PM »
Here you go Jim, two pics of the plunger.

As for the question I mentioned in the previous post, could you enlighten me on what the distinguishing feature/s are that designate an 1848 from an 1849 modle?

Thanks for your time in the matter. I love to learn all I can about these Colt's from knowledgeable men.




Offline sourdough

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2015, 12:25:23 PM »
Here you go Jim, two pics of the plunger.

As for the question I mentioned in the previous post, could you enlighten me on what the distinguishing feature/s are that designate an 1848 from an 1849 modle?

Thanks for your time in the matter. I love to learn all I can about these Colt's from knowledgeable men.





Scooby:

Thanks for the pics of your rammer/load lever! As you can see, the "machining"   :o  of my rammer slot is very crude and the length of the slot is excessive (especially compared to yours), causing the pivot end of the rammer to drop enough when the lever is actuated so as to vertically misalign the rammer with the chambers, wherein I have to push up on the bottom of the rammer at the pivot to allow it to align with the chambers. PITA. I have tried to find an ASM replacement to no avail (as of yet) and am even toying with trying a Uberti 1849 rammer.

My info about the 1848/1849 Pocket Pistols comes primarily the Shumaker book previously mentioned. I highly recommend obtaining a copy; if you do, you will be poring back and forth through it for a long time. Just Google the title and you will find vendors, and the price will be a mere pittance compared to this next one (I don't have it yet because of the price!) but I am told it is a bigger treatise and has many more pictures (both color and B&W):

http://www.abebooks.com/COLTS-POCKET-EVOLUTION-INCLUDING-BABY-DRAGOON/1052044465/bd

1848 Pocket vs. 1849 Pocket (in a nutshell):

The 1848 has a brass squareback TG; the 1849 has a brass rounded TG, either small or large type.

The 1848 has a 5-shot (only) cylinder with either round (early), oval (later), or rectangular (latest) stop slots with no approaches; the 1849 has a 5-shot or 6-shot cylinder and rectangular stop slots with approaches.

You must remember that during what Shumaker terms the "Transition Period" (S/N ~11600 - ~15500) that it was what I term as "mix-and-match" time: just about anything was put on the civilian market that would sell, except for the large round TG (which happened after this S/N range).

There are also anomalies like this, which have been debated as to whether this was a production "special",  or a "lunch box" pistol, or ?:

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-2247-rare-inscribed-colt-model-1849-pocket-percussion-revolver-with-dragoon-style-barrel-39319/

I have always entertained the possibility of purchasing a Uberti 1849 Pocket and having my next-door neighbor machinist turning down the octagon barrel to Dragoon style round. Money, of course, always figures into the equation.

You must also remember that these pistols are the genuine Colt pistols and not the replicas we both have, as there are many more variables with them; my 1848 has the rammer and lever pivot screws both entering from the right side, which has never been documented in the original Colts, to my knowledge.

There are also so MANY variables to this 1848/1849 mix that I must stop here and sincerely urge you to obtain, at the least, a copy of Flayderman's newest, a copy of Shumaker's work, and possibly a copy of Jordan's work (if you can afford it). If you are anything like me, it will boggle your mind. I do 1851 Navy variations and it is much simpler, even when adding the Confederate copies/variations into the mix.

I find it a very fascinating subject: much more so than arguing about whose 1911 is the bestest or the baddest.

Thanks for sharing your pics, especially the cased 1849. Did you purchase it that way or create it? Very nice, either way.

Take care and Merry Christmas!

Jim

« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 03:27:36 PM by sourdough »

Offline scooby

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2015, 11:09:21 PM »
For starters Jim, I did put the cased set together. I got the case with another purchase and decided to put it to work instead for the 1849. I already had the mould and appropriate flask on hand. I then purchaced the cone wrench and Eley's cap box to complete the intended accouterments.

As for your response to my question, I am indebted to your detailed response. You are a true and welcomed asset to this forum.

I will likely purchase the Jordan/Watt book soon to add to my library, as well as the Shumaker book.

Regarding the features that designate the two modles, my influence has come from Alderman's and Chapel's writings. Perhaps Chapel's work is now out dated, but I did not suspect Alderman's to be. From both sources, I have concluded that the 1848 did not come with a load lever. Alderman does clarify the fact of the transition of the bolt notches from round to rectangular, but neither author mention the feature of the lead in approaches. Both do confirm that the 1848 was solely a five shot modle. Alderman goes one step further by designating the 1848 as having a hammer sans the roller wheel. The largest contridiction comes from Chapel's photos in where he designates two different revolvers out of the lot of featured pictures as 1849 modles that do in fact have square trigger guards. Perhaps these to specimens fall into the transitional period?

So as it is, I have some further research to do, and thanks to you, I have been guided down a proper path in which to begin my efforts. Again, I give you my thanks for passing on your efforts to me.

Oh ya, that Julian version is a truly fascinating piece. It is plumb rich with asthetics given the octogon to round barrel. At times, I get to thinking that the mystique of some of the questionable originals serve to pique the historical interest just as much as mastering the full knowledge of the documented pieces.

Until we speak again my good man,,,,

Offline sourdough

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2015, 12:42:19 PM »
Scooby:

Thanks for all of the kudos, but they are not deserved. I have been into firearms since I was a little kid, but my eyes are going to pot and I decided to give all of my long guns to my son and just concentrate on C&B Colt replica pistols. You seem to think I am an expert on the subject, yet I have only owned the Pietta Navy .36 and the 1848 Pocket since this day a year ago. I love history and all of the info that goes with it. That's why my book expenses exceed my hardware expenses. My wife just rolls her eyes.

I think we are done with this thread but I will entertain any questions from you in the form of a PM, rather than take up space as a thread on the forum, if you wish.

I have enjoyed our friendly tete-a tete very much, and I am outta here.

I'm following your Pocket Root thread.

Jim

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2015, 05:24:57 PM »
Jim and Scooby....
By all, means, please continue this any any other conversations so that we can share it! History is a fascinating teacher and I've learned as much on threads such as this as I have in books by the 'experts'.
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline mike116

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2015, 06:31:36 PM »
Jim and Scooby....
By all, means, please continue this any any other conversations so that we can share it! History is a fascinating teacher and I've learned as much on threads such as this as I have in books by the 'experts'.

I second the Captain's remarks.  This type of conversation is what the forum is all about.  I wish I had something as valuable to contribute.

Offline sourdough

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2015, 02:08:37 PM »
OK, mike and Capt.:

I'll keep posting the info I find (ad nauseum to many, perhaps) if at least 2 mods are interested.   8)

There are so many threads out there (even on this forum) that will add to our overall misery (or non-misery, depending on viewpoint). I am trying to find a link to a thread that I printed out from Dr. Jim L. Davis about the 1848/1849, but no joy so far. I'll work on it. For more info: http://rprca.tripod.com/

Meanwhile, here's an old one from 2012:

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php?topic=276.0

As this thread shows, the pistol in question has no ASM markings (the same with my 1848 Pocket Replica Arms El Paso) but the shallow shoulders in the TG are absolutely ASM, especially concerning Replica Arms 1848/1849 Pockets. This 1848 has the rammer screw entering from the right and the load lever screw entering from the left, which is historically Colt accurate. It also has rectangular stop slots with no approaches, and is a 5-shot cylinder. From the photo I believe it is a 5" barrel (with load lever). All of the screw slots appear to be good (except the wedge screw, which I have seen time and time again with many folks think that it needs to be removed in order to "field strip" the pistol), which may be good or bad, depending upon if it was shot and put away dirty, or not. Classic ASM bad wood (as is mine).

So many variations and opinions to learn from. I entertain all opinions and information and go from there.

The next thing to explore (IMO) is the 1862 Pocket Navy .36. Shumaker addresses that in detail. That may be next year's purchase (Uberti). Cabela's does not sell them so I might have to buy from DGW. Their price is commensurate with the Uberti 1849 which I would use to turn the barrel round (Dragoon style) and create the anomaly pistol, replica style. We will see.

If you guys have the forum space, I'll gladly inundate you all with anything I find.  (7+"

When you want me to turn off the spigot, just give the word.

You folks are great. I love the camaraderie here. THR is good, but you and sister 1858 are the best.

Jim

Edit: I just ordered my Pietta G&G from Cabela's. Don't know when I will see it, but when it arrives, I'll play with it, swap out parts with my Pietta 1851 2nd Model and post some pics on a new thread.

I love the variations of the Pocket, but my heart is with the 1851 and all of its cousins.

Edit: This just popped up on my radar:

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php?topic=330.0

Geez, Louise, I want those guns! How could anyone want more? 3 half round/half octagon on 3 separate series revolvers? Awesome!

The bottom two small pistols are definitely ASM as denoted by the small shoulders on the TG.

Perfection! If you notice, the rammer pivot screws enter from the right side (typical ASM), and the lever pivot screws from the left (Colt). How this collector grabbed these guns is beyond me, but it is a 2012 post. Good wood on all 3 guns, no obvious scars on any screws, and even the rammer pivot on the Dragoon smacks of ASM design.

Just beautiful!

Scooby, are you drooling yet? I most certainly am insofar as the Dragoon style barrels. While not squarebacks, they most certainly fit in the genre of the Julia 1849 Dragoon barrel piece.

Am I drifting away from the OP's post? I think there are so many aspects to this whole picture that I am risking going off topic. You folks reign me in if I am wrong.

Jim

« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 04:53:50 PM by sourdough »

Offline G Dog

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Re: Square Trigger Guard
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2015, 04:07:48 PM »
Hi sourdough.  I have given my boys and nephews many of my long guns too.  I keep a couple of semi-auto pistols around for defensive purposes and carry and a vintage S&W Police Special, but like you I concentrate on those cap & ball repros now.  The fun of owning and shooting historic firearms canít be beat.

If this thread gets ďad nauseumĒ for anyone  - they are probably on the wrong forum.