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Print Page - Rifle and/or Pistol Set

SG's Old Coots Den & Privy

General Category => F&I War => Topic started by: Smokin_Gun on May 22, 2011, 09:08:03 AM



Title: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 22, 2011, 09:08:03 AM
I suppose I still have need for a F&I Period Rifle and Pistol ... it's the one thing I have not accomplished yet.
Being Akwesasnee(Mohawk) I'm told I could take any rifle I wanted ... they used to get the best of the best ... I lean towards French Military Rifles such as the Charlievilles, but they aren't cheap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleville_musket#Model_1728

I'm thinkin' a Fancy type Trade Rifle as would be givin' to a Chief or a Honored Warrior... I think I'd like a smoothbore flinter with anything from about a .50 - .62 cal if not the .69 cal as in the Charlevilles like the 1766. Who made Muskets in .62 cal?
There's also the Muskets like Jeagers, and 24 - 28 Guage guns that were used as trade guns with fine locks and barrels but kinda plain furnature... the Brown Bess' are nice but I don't want to be casting .75 caL Round balls.
I'm just thinkin' out loud here ...
What's yur thoughts and what would you choose for a Smoothbore, and why...
Thanks,
SG


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: S4B on May 22, 2011, 09:32:02 AM
Smooth-bores don't interest me in the least. The way I shoot, I need all the help I can get. I don't need any more challenge. I suppose if I ever did, it would be the 62 cal/ 20 guage just for shooting shot. Military type guns just don't do it for me, whatever the time-frame. Don't know why, just the way it is.


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 22, 2011, 09:50:06 AM
I can respect your taste of non Military Rifle vs Military ones ... I'd have just always wanted a Charleville 1766 or an Officer's model. The Cost of F&I and Rev War equipment and gettin' into it is high. So All I'm really lookin' for is a .50 cal or a .62 cal Rifle that would have been in the F&I War era ... like I said I'm just thinkin' out loud and it was somethin' I've thought on for many years.
I'm real close and have a nice set of Lewis&Clark era Harpers Ferrys and am happy with them ... Weere there Springfields back in the 1765 time frame?
Anyway it's a topic I like to talk about and this was the first post in the F&I Box so I'll keep talkin' on it and am open to any recommendations. }'"


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: CGN1771 on May 22, 2011, 11:28:58 AM
I did the F&I war era stuff for a few years when I was in the Coalition of Historical Trekkers. I had a period correct 62cal/20 guage smoothbore custom gun and I just never really got fond of that gun,didn't really like the big flintlock  or style of gun. I do like the Brown Bess alot and when I got the Enfield the other day the dealer had a Sergeants Model Brown Bess he called it, shorter version in 69 caliber. I was very tempted and if the enfield hadn't been there I would have probably ended up with the Bess.
 It looks like the one Fingers has in the rendevous pic he posted on here.
 Most reproduction Brown Bess are the second pattern which was made late in the F&I war but very few made it over here in time for use so the reproductions are considered by most a Rev war gun but guys do use them for the earlier or they can be converted a little to be more first model like, things like wooden ramrod versus metal.
I think a good general gun for that era that I'd like to save up and get is the cabelas blue ridge rifle in flintlock 50 caliber.


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 22, 2011, 11:40:58 AM
I have three .50cal Rifles already all Percussion...I should just try and find a left hand lock for my Tennessee Poorboy Mountain rifle ... and I din't think they had the Rifled barrels in the F&I War but did in the Rev War ... so I'm still feelin' for a French or German smoothbore. But Like I said It's still just a want and a long time thought at the moment. I'll shoot this Harpers Ferry Flinter for awhile and see ifin I can get good with it ... then save up for a custom or Military French Smoothbore in .62/20ga. or .69cal...Charlieville.


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 22, 2011, 01:21:23 PM
I ran across this Site while scanning the Inet for info ...  }''

http://www.historicalimagebank.com/gallery/main.php/v/album02/album25/album112/


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: CGN1771 on May 22, 2011, 03:43:21 PM
Good site,I'll keep that one, I like the brown bess and charlieville alot, I would love to have either one but I do like like all the muzzleloading military guns.. (_L
Either one would be great for the period and alot of fun too


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 22, 2011, 09:57:36 PM
I've always thought that and had I poured $$ into them Guns and Accourments of the F&I War ... I'd a never had all the Rifles and Revs I have or have had now...
But I am still gonna re-research the Smoothbores and Kentucky. and Penn. Rifles along with some plain French, German, or English Stiye smoothbore .50 or the .62 cal Preferably, of the F&I Wars era or before.
I guess ifin I were ever to move back East to Upstate NY , I could get back into the trappin', huntin' ,fishin',shootin' thing as where it was in the St. Lawrence River Valley... Land of the Mohawk(Akwesasne)  
Not that I'd like to leave the Mojave Desert ... it's perfect for my lungs. But if my Brother don't go back and put say a doublewide on the property for my Mom ... I'm thinkin' about if I could do it health wise...the breathin' in humidity or cold. Thinkin' I could go back in July and try the air out ya know (*K
Ahhh jus' thoughts at this point ... two of my Brothers are there annd mom's staying up from where her house was with them.
She's just bein' a mom and does not want to impose at 80 years old and still works as a Librarian  ;) ya know???  }'"


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: CGN1771 on May 23, 2011, 08:29:09 AM
That would sure be some kinda move, from the mojave desert back to the east coast of new york, I've lived in a few states around the south and I hope my movin days are over... but like you said, you never know what may come up and make decisions for you.


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: S4B on May 23, 2011, 08:34:22 AM
I'd dare say that the humidity would be hard on ya. I know whenever I go back east, it damn near kills me, and I don't have lung problems.


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 23, 2011, 08:51:20 AM
You guys are both right  ... my youngest Brother is in Oklahoma now and finnishing up some schoolin' and was talkin' of headin' back home, so I may just need to visit and see. I'll have a talk with my lung Doc and see what he says, buit I know yur right S4B ...it's just wishful thinkin'. I miss my Woods back there and could probly get out more for some huntin' and fishin' ... But I'll take a trip back and see how I can handle it.
New York also has stiffer Gun Laws than CA ... but where I lived was all country and woods with meadows.
Kinda miss it ...Ahhh we'll see I'll let the Divine Creator help me decide what's up .. }'"


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: prof marvel on May 23, 2011, 09:12:38 PM
Ah My Dear Smokin -
once again you offer me that opportunity to wax eloquent and expound at length, boring everyone to tears then moans, and finally screams of "Will you just shut the he77 up!" ...
oh that was the neighbor, nevermind...

but back on topic, prior to our move to our present abode, I had been collecting bits and pieces for a similar project. For Those of us who are desirous of a Rifle that would be correct in the Colonies during the F&I Wars The Inevitable Question has always plagued us - what the heck did they have?

The exact same problem plagued the producers of the Great Remake of the LOTM (Last of The Mohicans) - they contracted to produce a historically copy of the  rifle "Killdeer"
and got a transitional Jaeger (much like the Christians Spring - Edward Marshall)  that might have been produced by a 'smith in the colonies. While historically correct, That did not "look" like what the big boss wanted, so instead they contracted another that looked more like a long rifle from much later than the F&I war....

So far my spotty research has led me to one of the following possibilities for a correct firelock :

An Edward Marshal Rifle like this : http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles02.htm
   the Edward Marshall rifle is one of the few (if not the only) ) known Colonial made rifles from the F&I period.
MORE GOOD STUFFF HERE:
http://web.mac.com/kettenburgs/Site_2/Part_12.html

A proper period flint Jaeger

an Officer's Grade Flint Fowler

of all of these the most easily built, most practical, and most useful in any post 1750ish environment (even into 1820 ish rondys) would be the officer's grade fowler, and this might be a good choice for your Akwesasnee ancestry ....

Do not forget that given a front and rear sight a well-built smoothbore can easily keep a patched roundball on a pie-plate at 100 yards, and in spite of certain PC police rear sights are found on numerous fowlers found in collections (especially in the collection of the Museum of the Fur Trade in South Dakota) ... so there , nyah.

Of the military  types, the French are the lightest and most graceful, and since we are unlikely to be utilizing them for butt-strokes or bayonet charges I find lighter and graceful to be appealing ....

yhs
prof marvel



Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 23, 2011, 11:44:48 PM
My good friend Prof Marvel  ... good to see you as always.  Here's somethin' for yur neighbor  {J& and if he was just fiddlin' around here's another  (k&

I truely appreciate all you went thru to get this info for me ... I like that Model RK-4 (Left hand) in .58cal and the Officers Fowler you mentioned in 20ga. Knowing what you said about the Kentucky rifles and such also seeing the dated makes and model on the links you posted gave me alot better feel of what I am looking for.
I am also glad to see that some Fowlers had rear long with a front site with accuracy up to a 100 yards.
I will dream well tonite viewing the choices I have and the one 18th century long gun that's for me.
Thanks again Prof Marvel.
SG
YHS 2  }''


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 24, 2011, 07:05:34 AM
I kinda really like this one... in .58 or .50cal if I were to get a rifled barrel
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/2011%20Winter-Spring/2011%20May/RK-12full.gif)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/2011%20Winter-Spring/2011%20May/RK-12.jpg)
English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle
Our newest addition to the Chambers kit line is the English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle. Based on an original created by the famous London gunmaker William Turvey around 1740-1750. This piece is an early example of English full stock sporting rifles. English gunmakers sometimes incorporated Germanic features as exhibited by the plain sliding wooden patchbox and square toe. However, the hardware (including the wrist escutcheon, the decorative flowing side plate, and the first pattern acorn finial guard) exhibits the typical relief-chiseled details that occurred on fine English pieces. English sporting rifles in the 1700's were made for well-to-do English gentlemen but could have found their way to the colonies.

From a practical viewpoint today, this rifle makes a terrific, quick handling hunting rifle that is ideal for thick cover. Its short length and light weight make it easy to carry on those long all-day, or all week, hunts. This kit's hardware comes in both steel and brass, of which both were historically used on sporting rifles. The Round Faced English lock not only boasts excellent geometry and speed, but also utilizes a water-resistant pan. Because this is an English gun, the stock will be available only in English walnut wood. Please call for availability and pricing of the wood.

Stock Dimensions: Barrel Dimensions:
Trigger Pull: 13 1/2"
Drop At Heel: 2 3/4"
Butt Width: 2 1/8"
Drop At Comb: 1 1/2"
Butt Height: 4 15/16"
Weight i 54 cal.: approx. 7 3/4 lbs.
Overall Length: 46 1/4"
Lock: Round FacedEnglish
 31" tapered and flared octagon barrel
Breech: 1 1/8"
Small: 13/16"
Muzzle: 1"
Rifling: round Groove .016 deep
Calibers: 50, 54 and 58


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: CGN1771 on May 24, 2011, 12:08:40 PM
You'd sure look good with that one at the next rendevous  (_L {_#


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 24, 2011, 12:11:33 PM
Hell yeah I would  (_L I'd settle for a plain one like that unless I was wearin' Akwesasnee War paint and took it from .. well I guess anybody  ;) (*K


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: prof marvel on May 25, 2011, 08:34:23 PM
An English Sporting Rifle would be just the ticket, and some showed up with the British officers in the colonies, so any of the Iroquois Confederation could have several opportunities to "acquire" one.

I think, but cannot locate documentation just now, that the "Chiefs Grade" Trade muskets may have been trying to copy the Sporting Rifle.

I do recall, based on Hudson Bay Trading post letters, that the Indigenous Peoples trading at the Posts preffered the lighter, better pointing ~36" - 42"  20 ga trade guns to either the heavy clunky military muskets or to the trade rifles. The longer range of the rifle was not that useful to them, compared to the ability to shoot either shot or ball however they chose. Further, there are several letters in which the Post Factor described observing Natives adjust a gun to shoot "correctly" by gently bending the barrel in the fork of a tree and firing test shots, and repeating  until they had brought the barrel to hit where the gun naturally pointed!

I have several smoothbore barrels and raw stock wood out in the garage waiting to be turned into a trade gun or three, but I just recieved a "new old stock" fajen  stock for my Eddystone and am busy fitting it up for the possibility of a fall outing. I must say, I enjoy stocking a traditional flinter or caplock from a plank, but these newfangled cheekpiece pistol grip stocks for crazy tapered ca'tridge barrels are so much easier to "just buy".

yhs
prof marvel


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 25, 2011, 08:49:57 PM
I'm with you on that statement ... I think they'd make the ideal type rifle for theit use or intended use.
I have heard of the adjusting of the siting by bending the barrels in the fork of a tree .... haven't needed to try that yet though  :)
Good to hear you have a supply of these type barrels  ... and glad you rec'd thre New old stock you wanted. There is nothing better than getting something you've wanted and being able to do the what for all wth it yourself.
You'll be sharin' some pics of it with us I would hope?
 K(% }'"


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: CGN1771 on May 25, 2011, 09:03:21 PM
Here is a good link for trade guns of the era, some nice other models and reading there too.

http://www.northstarwest.com/


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: Smokin_Gun on May 25, 2011, 09:36:50 PM
Cool Site Chad ... they have alot for everyone there ... even the kits what ain't a bad price either ... I can't swing one yet but I will one day.
A slender Brown Bess type is an eye catcher ... and they offer most of them in 20, 24, or 28 guage ... 30, 36, and 41' bbls.


Title: Re: Rifle and/or Pistol Set
Post by: CGN1771 on May 25, 2011, 09:47:52 PM
I've never had any of their stuff but I've always heard good reviews. They have a few I'd like to have.