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Author Topic: from 1848 to 1862  (Read 3847 times)

Offline Ringo

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from 1848 to 1862
« on: January 17, 2016, 07:34:04 AM »
Did Samuel Colt ever make a round barreled 1849 Pocket pistol ? As far as I know, the answer to this question is still discussed among amateurs. If he did not, Italian replica makers did it for him. So, if one excepts the Root, between 1848 and 1862 Colt put out 4 Pocket models. Here are mine :


The first one on top is an 1848 Baby Dragoon with rammer made in 1969 by Armi San Marco. It owes its "Baby Dragoon" moniker to its squareback triggerguard. Otherwise, it is just identical to a 1849 Pocket.

The second one is a round barreled 1849 Pocket made  in 1970 by Armi San Marco.

The third one is a plain 1849 Pocket made in 1984 by Armi San Marco. It bears the marking "WEST ARMS" on top of the barrel, which would be a range of replicas made by ASM in the 1980s.

The fourth one from the top is an 1862 Pocket Police made in 1974 by Uberti for RG Pioneer Arms.

The fifth and last one is an 1861 Pocket Navy made in 1977 by an unknown maker for Euromanufacture (the double diamond logo of which its bears).

I like the streamlined shape of the Pocket Police, which is really elegant, but to me the silhouette of the 1848, 1849 and 1862, closest to that of the 1851, is the real thing, the quintessence of the Old West revolver.

Offline sourdough

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2016, 06:31:11 PM »
Ringo,

Here is a discussion we all had on the Colt Country Forum about a month ago. I'll give you the link rather than repost stuff. It covers mostly 1848-1849 Colt Pockets and repros, but not so much on the 1862 Pocket Police/Navy. Fingers is an excellent source on the latter.

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?topic=1379.0

Hope this helps.

Jim
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 06:32:11 PM by sourdough »

Offline Ringo

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2016, 07:47:47 PM »
Thanks, Jim !
It seems our main interest is about the same. I too am mainly drawn to the 1851 Navy Colt, and its roots and offshoots : 1848, 1849, 1861, 1862, and Confederate copies. Sadly, my means do not allow me to collect originals (I don't mean 2nd and 3rd generations, but true originals). Nevertheless, I do enjoy my replicas.
I also read as much information as I can. I have Joseph G. Rosa's "Colt revolvers & the Tower of London",  and "Colonel Colt - London", Arthur Tobias's "Colt cylinder scenes 1847-1851" including "the Root of the Matter", P. L. Shumaker's "variations of the old model pocket pistol 1848-1872", D. L. Rhea's "how the Colt Navy .36 revolver was gunsmithed and fired in the field during the Civil War", Nathan Swayze's "'51 Colt Navies", Fred Sweeney's "a guide to the proper accoutrements for Hartford produced percussion Colt revolvers", Yves L. Cadiou's "les Colt - revolvers à percussion et conversions", Gary Wiggins's "Dance & Brothers - Texas gunmakers of the Confederacy", William A. Albaugh III's "the Confederate brass-framed Colt & Whitney", Albaugh and Richard D. Steuart's "the original Confederate Colt", and Albaugh, Benet and Simmons's "Confederate Handguns", and a lot of articles mainly from "the gun report" and "the American Society of arms collector". I keep them all handy as reference, and too often forget to check them... I also intend to get a copy of the Jordan-Watt book on Pocket Pistols, but I haven't as of yet found one within my price range.

Regarding the 1848 and 1849, I can confirm that mine are all 5 shots. Also, as you can see on the photo, the loading lever screw comes in from the left side whereas the rammer screw comes in from the right on all three.
Lastly, here are a pictures of both sides of the rammer of the 1848 :

As you can see, the shape is close to the rammer on Scooby's '48, but the size of the hole is more like the one on your 1848.

Offline sourdough

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 08:24:36 PM »
Ringo,

My means do not even allow me to do more than look at pics of originals. I envy your library: some of those titles I have never heard of. The link I sent about Augusta Machine Works is from a French site with many more topics. I don't remember how I found the site. Some of the spelling and verbiage is not quite correct, and it is sometimes repetitious, but IMO a fair source of information if one is willing to glean.

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20americaine/colt/a%20a%20colt%20gb.htm

My 1848 rammer is, frankly, a POS, but I have other irons in the fire than replacing that for now. Little by little: with your book list in hand (still have to print it out and research price and availability) I have more important things to think about now.  (j*   To me, nothing is more important in a replica purchase than learning about the originals AND the early-to-present replicas in order to figure out how close one is to an original and the differences in modern manufacturers. As I have said elsewhere in other forums, my wife thinks I am nuts with my REAL books vs. her e-books (but, then, all she reads is romance novel series stuff and watches Hallmark and Lifetime TV channels   *%< ). Alas, I digress...

Thanks for your list!

Jim


Offline Ringo

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 07:33:15 AM »
I envy your library: some of those titles I have never heard of.
I have gathered these books over the years. Some I have bought second hand, mostly on EBay and Amazon, others I had to buy new direct from the author, others still I received as birthday or Christmas presents (I started writing lists and sending them to my closest relatives so that they know how to get me a present that I will really enjoy).

The link I sent about Augusta Machine Works is from a French site with many more topics. I don't remember how I found the site. Some of the spelling and verbiage is not quite correct, and it is sometimes repetitious, but IMO a fair source of information if one is willing to glean.
This site is Belgian in fact (Belgium and France share a common border, and French is one of the official languages of Belgium). This site is one of my references I keep forgetting to check. Another excellent one (a German this time, but written in English) is devoted to the 1860, and mainly its Belgian replica, the Centaure :
http://www.1960nma.org/ 1960nma stands for New Model Army made from 1960.

Thanks for your list!

Jim
It's always my pleasure to be of any help.  :)

Offline sourdough

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2016, 04:53:38 PM »
Thanks, Jim !
It seems our main interest is about the same. I too am mainly drawn to the 1851 Navy Colt, and its roots and offshoots : 1848, 1849, 1861, 1862, and Confederate copies. Sadly, my means do not allow me to collect originals (I don't mean 2nd and 3rd generations, but true originals). Nevertheless, I do enjoy my replicas.
I also read as much information as I can. I have Joseph G. Rosa's "Colt revolvers & the Tower of London",  and "Colonel Colt - London", Arthur Tobias's "Colt cylinder scenes 1847-1851" including "the Root of the Matter", P. L. Shumaker's "variations of the old model pocket pistol 1848-1872", D. L. Rhea's "how the Colt Navy .36 revolver was gunsmithed and fired in the field during the Civil War", Nathan Swayze's "'51 Colt Navies", Fred Sweeney's "a guide to the proper accoutrements for Hartford produced percussion Colt revolvers", Yves L. Cadiou's "les Colt - revolvers à percussion et conversions", Gary Wiggins's "Dance & Brothers - Texas gunmakers of the Confederacy", William A. Albaugh III's "the Confederate brass-framed Colt & Whitney", Albaugh and Richard D. Steuart's "the original Confederate Colt", and Albaugh, Benet and Simmons's "Confederate Handguns", and a lot of articles mainly from "the gun report" and "the American Society of arms collector". I keep them all handy as reference, and too often forget to check them... I also intend to get a copy of the Jordan-Watt book on Pocket Pistols, but I haven't as of yet found one within my price range.

I have recently received both of the books in bold-faced font above in your quote. Rosa's treatise was good, but I am enamoured with Bill Albaugh's (et al) book. I bought it used and the jacket is pretty much junk, but the book itself is fairly pristine, with no scribbled notes. I have just started into it but it seems a fabulous treasury of information, both personal and documented. I'll be busy for a while insofar as reading goes. The next search is for this one: William A. Albaugh III's "The Confederate Brass-framed Colt & Whitney".
 
Thank you so much for the heads up insofar as your book list. I will search for more of the titles on your list. You are, indeed, a treasure to this forum, especially to newbies like me.

Jim


Offline Ringo

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2016, 05:16:31 PM »
That is one of the kindest things I was ever told. I wish it was really true, but I do appreciate all the same. In fact I am all red in the face and grinning from ear to ear at the same time. Thanks Jim, you've made my day.  )><

Offline sourdough

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2016, 06:39:02 PM »
Ah, Ringo, that was not posted to make you feel good, but thanks for the compliment.

Both CaptainKirk and Smokey want to see this forum revived and I agree. Posts like yours with beaucoup information about replicas and originals is what is going to sustain this forum.

I will do my best to add to this forum. At my old age I have difficulty differenciating which BP forum I am addressing (1858 Rem, Almighty Colt, THR, and others).

When I get around to doing my 1851 variants (Confederate and otherwise) I will post it here. It may take a while as my camera is not cooperating well these days.

Jim

Offline Rcampb6131

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2016, 03:28:57 PM »
In my collection I have:  left top a Colt 1849 Pocket revolver by Uberti dated 2013, bottom is an 1863 Remington Pocket by Armi San Marco dated 1987.  On the right is a Colt 1862 Police by Uberti dated 2009, and below is a Colt Baby Dragoon by Armi San Marco dated 1959.  Thought maybe you all might enjoy the picture.

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2016, 03:33:25 PM »
Very nice collection of pockets there! Thanks for sharing.
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline Ringo

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2016, 03:40:29 PM »
In my collection I have:  left top a Colt 1849 Pocket revolver by Uberti dated 2013, bottom is an 1863 Remington Pocket by Armi San Marco dated 1987.  On the right is a Colt 1862 Police by Uberti dated 2009, and below is a Colt Baby Dragoon by Armi San Marco dated 1959.  Thought maybe you all might enjoy the picture.
Very nice picture, Rcampb !
The grips are so shiny, especially on the two on the right hand side. Is it the light are they really that shiny ?
About the Baby Dragoon, are you sure it is 1959 ? It is really like new.

Offline Rcampb6131

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2016, 04:09:25 PM »
Ringo:  The date code on the Baby Dragoon is XV which is 1959.  I bought it off of Gun Broker 2 years ago.  It looks like it never has been fired.  Yes, the grips are that good looking. 

Offline Ringo

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2016, 04:12:51 PM »
Ringo:  The date code on the Baby Dragoon is XV which is 1959.  I bought it off of Gun Broker 2 years ago.  It looks like it never has been fired.  Yes, the grips are that good looking.
1959 makes it one of the very first Italian replicas ever to have been produced. You were lucky to acquire it. I even thought they only made 1851 Navies at the time.

Offline Rcampb6131

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 03:42:57 PM »
Ringo:  I looked carefully again at the date code on my Baby Dragoon.  The code XV is very distinct, but there is a very faint mark before the XV that looks like the top half of an X.  It looks like it wasn't struck correctly.  If it is an X that would make the code XXV, which is 1969 not 1959.  I think that is when this revolver was made by ASM.  This seems to make more sense regarding the timeframe that ASM began making revolvers.

Offline Ringo

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Re: from 1848 to 1862
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2016, 04:53:15 PM »
I have the same problem on one of my replicas (I have to check which one) : at first sight, the date code is XX, which would make it 1964, but a closer look reveals what might be the left downstroke of a V, which makes it 1969 after all.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 06:25:42 PM by Ringo »