Author Topic: new member, old revolver I.D. problem  (Read 2163 times)

Offline old horse trader

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new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« on: September 03, 2013, 10:12:35 AM »
Hi. I'm a new member here and was hoping to get some experienced input on a problem I've had for 10 years now trying to i.d. a revolver I have. It looks like a G&G but there are no names on it any where. I've sent pictures of it to museums and collectors  everywhere with no results and I'm about at my wit's end. Instead of reposting all the pic's and and retyping (with one finger) allllll the facts it would be so much easier to just post a link to treasurenet where the most of it is posted. I sure hope I can get this solved and end 10 years of it eating at me. Thanks in advance for any help. I've included a couple pics. Dan


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/120576-solved-more-input-needed-old-no-name-pistol.html
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 10:13:16 AM by old horse trader »

Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2013, 11:04:29 AM »
It is more than likely an Italian reproduction of a Griswold & Gunnison (brass frame, dragoon style barrel, .36 caliber) that has been defarbed - had all the modern markings removed.  The 17000 serial number is too high for it to be an original.  The 1257 numbers would be assembly numbers used by the manufacturer.  It looks as if someone was attempting to clone a G&G; but used a serial number high enough to ensure no one could claim fraud or would think it was an original.  I've done the same to a pair of Leech and Rigdons. 

Colt's never made a brass framed 1851 style revolver.  Neither did Manhattan or Metropolitan.
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee; SASS 28654-L-TG, NCOWS 3280; Alter Ego of Diabolical Ken, rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire.  Founding member of Central Ozarks Western Shooters and member of Southern Missouri Rangers, Double M Cowboys, Owl Creek Raiders and the Ozark Posse

Offline old horse trader

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 10:12:50 AM »
This is what I've been dealing with for 10 years now. There are no grind or file marks anywhere on it, no "black powder only", no "made in Italy" and no name. After years of searching I have only located one other like it at an auction in the U.K. and it was identical. The thing that caught my eye the most when I found that one was, it was marked 1247 on the inside and mine is 1257. What are the odds of that?. The sellers posting said he had his tested and it was from the 1863 time frame. personally, I don't know if that kind of testing is possible. That one sold at auction for 1350.00 pounds.


Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 11:34:28 AM »
Perhaps you should listen to what you've been told for 10 years.

If done correctly, you will not see any grind or file marks on a defarbed pistol.  I've got a pair of Leech and Rigdons that have been defarbed that would take an expert to detect.  This appears to be a pistol that someone has attempted to fake - and not too accurately at that.

The only markings on original G*Gs  are the serial number; that is stamped on the right side of the frame and barrel, and on the cylinder; and some had a secondary serial number, and some had a cryptic letter mark that is thought to be the marking of the person that assembled the pistol.  The serial numbers being stamped on the barrel lug, backstrap and the underside of the frame is not consistent with originals.

Additionally, originals had twisted iron cylinders that the twists are very evident on; from your pictures I see no twists in the cylinder.  Originals did not have a spring in the wedge; this one does.  The cylinders had safety pins; same a Colt's Navies did, your cylinder has no such pins evident. Originals did not have the caliber marked on them.  That is a modern addition.  The bolt cuts on original cylinders were rectangular with very short leads; yours has the more modern trapezoidal cuts with long leads. 

If you want to know a lot more about G&Gs, I suggest you get "The Confederate Brass Framed Colt and Whitney" copyright 1993 by William A. Albaugh III.  It's available on Amazon.  Another book is "Confederate Handguns" copyright 1963 by Wlliam A. Albaugh, Hugh Benet Jr, and Edward N. Simmons.  Also available on Amazon.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 11:47:03 AM by Fingers McGee »
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee; SASS 28654-L-TG, NCOWS 3280; Alter Ego of Diabolical Ken, rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire.  Founding member of Central Ozarks Western Shooters and member of Southern Missouri Rangers, Double M Cowboys, Owl Creek Raiders and the Ozark Posse

Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 11:51:30 AM »
BTW,

This forum is not very active - as you can probably tell.  I'd suggest that you take a look at the following more active BP forums:

The High Road.Org
The Firing Line.Com
CasCity.Com
Blackpowder Times.Com
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee; SASS 28654-L-TG, NCOWS 3280; Alter Ego of Diabolical Ken, rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire.  Founding member of Central Ozarks Western Shooters and member of Southern Missouri Rangers, Double M Cowboys, Owl Creek Raiders and the Ozark Posse

Offline old horse trader

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2013, 10:23:42 AM »
I'm thinking that you misunderstand what I'm trying to do here. I knew from day one that this is not a G&G, Colt and many others but what I don't know, is what it is and that is what is driving me to keep up my search.

Can this topic be moved to a more active topic as you suggested?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:26:21 AM by old horse trader »

Offline Fingers McGee

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2013, 06:46:48 PM »
I'm thinking that you misunderstand what I'm trying to do here. I knew from day one that this is not a G&G, Colt and many others but what I don't know, is what it is and that is what is driving me to keep up my search.

Can this topic be moved to a more active topic as you suggested?

OHT,

I'm convinced it is a modern (post 1960) replica of a G&G from one of the early makers; COM, PR, BLG, G&U, Euromanufacture, Armi San Paolo or even Armi San Marco.  One thing it is not - a Pietta or A. Uberti - the grip frame does not match anything they have made - and as I believe, predates any of the current makers.

Register on the other BP sites I listed & cut and paste your original post from here.  Not being a moderator on this or the other sites, I don't know how you'd get this thread transferred

Ken
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee; SASS 28654-L-TG, NCOWS 3280; Alter Ego of Diabolical Ken, rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire.  Founding member of Central Ozarks Western Shooters and member of Southern Missouri Rangers, Double M Cowboys, Owl Creek Raiders and the Ozark Posse

Offline Ringo

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2016, 07:20:09 PM »
I have carefully read the whole thread on http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/120576-solved-more-input-needed-old-no-name-pistol.html. I have watched every picture posted.
Obviously, nothing can be definitely stated from the serial numbers, the screws threads, the absence or presence of safety pins, or the barrel rifling.
The thing that gives it away for me is the "cal. 36" stamped above the barrel wedge.
I have never seen this stamping on that place on any original cap and ball revolver, only on Italian replicas.
To the best of my knowledge, no Confederate maker ever stamped any caliber on their revolvers, be it above the wedge or anywhere else.
When Colt started stamping the caliber of his cap & ball revolvers, he chose to put it on the trigger guard.

To me the answer is rather obvious then : the revolver is definitely not an original. It was most likely built from an imported italian kit in the early 1960s. This is the only explanation for the missing markings : the kits parts were not proofed, many cheap italian replicas bore no maker's mark, the "made in Italy" would not be stamped on a kit. Regarding the "Black powder only", it was not stamped on cap and ball revolvers in the early 1960s. It only appeared in the early 1970s.

So there was no need to defarb the gun, and it certainly has not been defarbed, otherwise the "cal. 36" would have been filed away too.
The ancient looking serial numbers were there from the start, and the others were added later.
As for the files markings on the brass frame, my best guess is the parts needed some filing to fit, and that filing was a bit rough.

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2016, 10:41:24 PM »
To me the answer is rather obvious then : the revolver is definitely not an original. It was most likely built from an imported italian kit in the early 1960s.
I was going to suggest the same. Thanks, Ringo.
"You gonna pull those pistols, or whistle Dixie?"

Offline tljack

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Re: new member, old revolver I.D. problem
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 09:38:02 PM »
My sentiments as well.

Terry