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Author Topic: Cap Sucking Colts  (Read 46960 times)

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2016, 09:04:12 AM »
Too bad he couldn't be offered a cap post and see how reliable his '51could be. Reliability brings joy to shooting modern cap and ball revolvers. I've had many folks thank me for doing just that to what once was a disappointing outing at best. Not really me, but just the addition of something so simple as a cap post. These aren't precious museum quality pieces, just everyday reproductions that offer great satisfaction or great frustration.

Just keep forging ahead


Mike
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2016, 10:55:48 AM »
Hi Mike, IMO the cap rake is less than a perfect solution to cap sucking. If the cap is able to come off the nipple even a little bit, it is a candidate for getting in the action of the revolver. If not concerned on using the cylinder pin safeties, IMO the solid face hammer is superior. Of course this is my opinion that may be very wrong.

The couple of 1851/1860s that I have that have never had cap sucking have hammer notch edges that are slight rounded, kind of like "melted". Then the caps don't stick to the hammer face. IMO engineer the method to radius the hammer notch and we then have no cap sucking and still have the Colt safety.

Retards,
Richard
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2016, 10:57:27 AM »
I can't figure out why so many have a problem with cap sucking. I get one now and then but nowhere near the extent of the complaints I see about them. I have just about as many cap problems with Remingtons as I do with Colt's which isn't very many.
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2016, 11:18:34 AM »
Hi Hawg, it's interesting our different experiences. I have fired many many thousand rounds using both the Pietta and Uberti 1858 Remington's an have never, yes never ever, had a cap jam. The cap jam propensity I experience is inversely proportional to the size of the Colt. Other than the Colts I own that have the melted hammer safety notch edges, all my Colts cap suck were I would never consider a Colt for a personal protection firearm. I would have no problem using an 1858 for personal defense if I didn't already own better modern handgun choices.

Some day we are going to get to the bottom of the Colt cap sucking problem, I hope.

I think that a lot of the cap sucking problems are because caps today are different than when first used in the day of the percussion revolver model introduction.

BTW, I'm glad you got your SS issues resolved.

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2016, 12:27:53 PM »
Hello Richard and I figgered that you would think that.

IMO, the cap post FAR exceeds the solid hammer as I like keeping the option of a fully loaded revolver (not to mention most CASS/SASS shooters would agree that the solid hammer is less than perfect and the post is close to perfect .  . . but then who are they?).
The fact that the cap does come loose and the fact that a post is therefore between it and the hammer means the hammer will not pull the cap and or frags to the rear and allow access to the action. With a revolving cyl to deflect the spent cap away and to the right,  you can't ask for better performance.
 The slow motion footage at the end of Brushhippies fanning of the '51 shows the caps flying off to the right .  .  .  . just like they're supposed to, if they don't stay on the nipple.
 The post or rake doesn't take anything away from the revolver,  is heralded as the best solution by those in  Competition (I get asked weekly about them) and isn't cap/nipple sensitive.
  The solid hammer still allows caps that come loose after firing to fall back into the action ( there's nothing to keep that from happening) , removes the ability to use the safety pins,  and puts the burden of finding the "right cap with the right nipple and the right charge" ( to hopefully have the caps not come off the nipple after firing) on the shooter and hopefully able to keep a supply of the appropriate caps (not certain with todays situation).  Not what I would call a solution in the least, more of a hopefull hindrance. Of course, that's my opinion.


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 12:33:58 PM by 45 Dragoon »

Offline G Dog

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2016, 05:49:48 PM »
I use Piettas with stock cones and CCI #10’s and don’t have hardly any cap problems on either Colts or Remingtons.

I think that a lot of the cap sucking problems are because caps today are different than when first used in the day of the percussion revolver model introduction.

Regards,
Richard

Aside from staying on the nipple, what do you think the differences are in mid-19th Century caps and the ones available today?
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2016, 08:04:59 PM »
Hi G Dog, I have similar cap sucking issues using either CCI or Remington caps.

I'm only guessing, but maybe the back-in-the-day caps were thicker gauge metal? Maybe the ignition mixture was milder where the cap didn't fragment?

BTW, I never have cap sucking issues using conversion cylinders.  *6' *6' *6'

Regards,
Richard
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline Hawg

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2016, 03:37:02 AM »
Caps back in the day were thicker and made from copper. I doubt there was ever an issue with cap sucking or falling into the action.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and tasteth good with ketchup.

Offline old fogey

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2016, 07:53:45 PM »
If'n you have a cap-sucking problem when shootin' a conversion cylinder, maybe ya should switch ta lolly pops (worked fer that bald-headed Telly Savalous feller waay back in the '70's)!  :-H

Offline wicket

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2016, 06:58:00 AM »
  Hawg's right. I've fired hundreds of 10 mil annealed 4 petal copper caps, they work better. They'd also cost about twice as much to manufacture as modern caps, so forget about ever seeing them on the market. I cock muzzle up, and haven't had enough cap problems to worry about even with modern caps, which is what I mostly use. Smoothing the notch, adding a post, packing two pistols, or buying a Remington all sound like worthwhile solutions, pretty much a matter of individual preference I suppose.

Offline GaryC

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2016, 07:57:04 AM »
If anyone is interested here are some pics of a couple of caps that stuck to the safety slot in the hammer of the Pietta Navy at the range Tuesday.  It certainly shows how a cap rake would prevent such jams for those that want to go that route.  The cap material was actually pierced by the metal at the base of the slot.  After about 130 rounds, the slot had become peened in slightly.  I stoned the base of the slot slightly to make the angles on the hammer slot so they are less sharp where they penetrated the cap which was a CCI 10.  Won't know if that helped until I get to the range again.  It still was not a much problem with CCI 10 caps the gun likes.

Regards
Gary

Pic of hammer face.


Pic of cap stuck to Hammer


Pic of the cap



Another one stuck to the hammer


Pic of that cap

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2016, 09:15:21 AM »
Thanks GaryC. The cap posts work very well. I hear reports constantly about how well they work.  Unfortunately, I'll never hear these words from Hawg!!  *6'

It's just a good, reliable, modern fix to a "modern" problem. I think after looking at a first gen though, the slot in the hammer is definitely wider in the reproductions. So, welding it up and cutting a narrow (pin width, even a hole instead of a slot?) slot might work. The only problem left with that though is a loose cap (our modern caps will blow off of the cone with back pressure) falling into the action.

Something to think about .  .  .  . 

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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Offline Hawg

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2016, 10:55:43 AM »
Thanks GaryC. The cap posts work very well. I hear reports constantly about how well they work.  Unfortunately, I'll never hear these words from Hawg!!  *6'

No, you wont. I consider them to be an abomination, )H^ but then y'all know how persnickety I am.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and tasteth good with ketchup.

Offline ssb73q

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2016, 11:11:45 AM »
Hi Mike, a Colt is a Colt, it's going to have cap parts lockup the action. Rake or filled in slot, the Colt will fail to reliably fire. You know I recently filled in the hammer slot of a Pietta 1851/1860 hammer, see:
http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?topic=960.msg15756#msg15756

I'm a lazy bastard and haven't yet tested that hammer. A couple of days ago I shot one of my 1860s and had a few cap jams. One of them was so severe that the cap appeared welded to the hammer face, like what Gary reported. It took a number of minutes with a sharp small screwdriver to get the cap parts freed from the hammer slot.

While I rarely agree with Hawg ( )lI )lI), I really don't like the idea of a cap rake. Is that rational, probably not, but that's where I am. I don,t like adding something that Colt didn't design in. My philosophy is to fill in the hammer gap and load only 5, keeping the hammer down on an empty chamber. That's how I run my Colt 1873, the preferred method for carry safety.

Bottom line is that we will never depend on using a C&B for personal defense. Why even bother with any modification not already built in? Ok, go ahead and whip me.

Regards,
Richard
   
There’s nothing better in the morning than the smell of bacon and black powder smoke!

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: Cap Sucking Colts
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2016, 12:46:44 PM »
Not gonna whip anybody.
 I just do what my customers want and the cap post is one of the most sought after mods by far. Mostly from folks that shoot competition. Competition is where mods that work are separated from those that don't. Just like auto racing, the competitive edge gives the rest of the auto market the best upgrades.
 Nobody has to have mods done or do mods themselves, it's like anything else that one decides.  I've said before, the mods I've chosen were done so for the longevity and reliability of the revolver (mainly open tops). They seem to work and that's why I do what I do.

So, when someone asks how to .  .  .   I offer what works for me and my customers.


As far as your last question, for the same reason we don't still drive Model T's for everyday transportation.


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
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« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 01:01:26 PM by 45 Dragoon »