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General Black Powder => Brass and Other Cartridge Casings => Topic started by: mike116 on March 18, 2017, 07:43:13 PM

Title: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: mike116 on March 18, 2017, 07:43:13 PM
I bought  a bullet mold from a guy who had Lee Precision make a copy of the conical bullet used in the original Johnston and Dow waterproof cartridges that were patented in 1862.    I used the bullet to make an approximation of the original cartridge except that this one is paper and the original was made of gut.   Mine is not waterproof either.   
The cartridge holds 30 grains FFFg, a lube cookie and is topped off with the 216 grain heel based conical.   The bullet measure .429 at the base and .460 at the driving band.    My 1860 Uberti has a ram that accommodates pointed bullets so that will be the revolver I use for firing these cartridges.

(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab126/mike-116/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03-18%2014.31.53_zps9f8yco0x.jpg)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab126/mike-116/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03-18%2014.38.16_zps5cxpmova.jpg)
(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab126/mike-116/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-03-18%2014.40.06_zpspatosbgx.jpg)
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: washbuster on March 18, 2017, 10:13:35 PM
your rammer is shaped like the bullet?
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: mike116 on March 19, 2017, 05:17:09 AM
your rammer is shaped like the bullet?
Yes this Uberti has a rammer made for pointed bullets.  It's not an exact fit but it's close.   
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: scooby on March 19, 2017, 06:40:19 AM
Most excellent Mike. Your cartridges look great. And that is a nice touch picking up a few of those cartridge boxes.

Lee should put that mould into regular production.

Once in a while, I see where someone has dug up an intact musket cartridge with the gut casing and powder still intact. I have also seen Johnston and Dow unopened revolver packages for sale at times.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: ssb73q on March 19, 2017, 07:12:44 AM
Hi, I wonder if commercial fireworks tubing could be used to make cartridges. I am a klutz winding thin paper into paper cartridges. I came across this product, see:

http://www.pyrodirect.com/Item/065-0024

Nitrated paper could then be glued to an open end with a ball glued to the other. Maybe even nitrate the tube paper to allow complete burning?

Anyone think that this idea has merit?

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: mike116 on March 19, 2017, 08:52:05 AM
Charlie Hahn makes cartridges for and sells tubes like that for breech loading rifles.  I've never seen the cardboard tubes for revolvers.  I think it would limit the amount of powder one could load.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: ssb73q on March 19, 2017, 11:23:19 AM
Hi Mike, the wall thickness is only 0.015" thick. Since I don't load with a maximum loading potential, there should be enough room for 30gr by volume powder. I ordered some of those tubes and will give it a try.

During compression, the tube should break to allow no air space in the loading. If this works it will allow my thick thumb to make some paper cartridges. I'll report back what I learn.

BTW, shipping for these tubes is lower cost on this site:
http://www.buycannonfuse.com/Item/065-0024

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: mike116 on March 19, 2017, 12:00:52 PM
If 30 grains would fit then you'll be set Richard.  Hopefully the tube will crush easy enough.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: ssb73q on March 23, 2017, 04:43:38 AM
Hi, I received the paper tubes yesterday. They have a much thicker wall than what was described and can't be used for paper cartridges. My money was refunded and since I can't find anyone with thin walled paper tubing with correct dimensions, this paper tube cartridge project is dead.

Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: Len on September 04, 2018, 10:59:35 AM
Shot Navy and Manhattan this morning. Found the loading procedure a bit dull, so finally got down to making paper cartridges. Made a conical brass cutting tool for the hole and a wooden mandrel to fit. Bee waxed the mandrel. Bought cigarette papers, and got going. Used contact glue (which I hope will burn). Will test shoot tomorrow. (Homage is due to some of the guys over at the Remi forum, who provided the knowledge)
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: G Dog on September 04, 2018, 11:59:23 AM
That outfit and carts look great, Len.  Nice work.  I use a water based paste on mine (Elmer's).  Sniffing chemmy glue never seemed like a good idea. 

Did you use a wad a filler, too?  Looking very good there.  Well done.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: Len on September 04, 2018, 01:03:41 PM
That outfit and carts look great, Len.  Nice work.  I use a water based paste on mine (Elmer's).  Sniffing chemmy glue never seemed like a good idea. 

Did you use a wad a filler, too?  Looking very good there.  Well done.
Thanks G. I used corn meal as a filler and will lube the chambers after loading (mutton lard + bees wax). I'm on the road to going back to basics (after having gone the full lap), have been adding too much irrelevant additions to the sport.
As I only shoot originals, I see no point in finding the big load. Today's 15 grains loads penetrated 3" of pine board from 15 yrds.
As to the glue, after a lifetime of sniffing different glues, I am Chertain Ai Ave Naut Contracteed Aenny Baed Iffekts
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: G Dog on September 04, 2018, 02:23:01 PM
As to the glue, after a lifetime of sniffing different glues, I am Chertain Ai Ave Naut Contracteed Aenny Baed Iffekts

 (7+"   Good one, Len.  That's first class funny.  Very good.   !!!
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: Len on September 05, 2018, 07:00:57 AM
Shot the Navy with the paper cartridges today. Worked just fine, No miss-fires. No residual paper in the chambers. Easy loading.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: LonesomePigeon on September 12, 2018, 09:24:24 AM
"I am a klutz winding thin paper into paper cartridges"

Richard, I recently made some .44 caliber paper cartridges using fairly thick nitrated computer paper and they worked well. Ignition was instant and there was no detectable hang fire. There was some small bits of unburned paper where the glue contacted the paper. I only fired 6 shots so I don't know if this would hinder ignition of subsequent shots. However, this thick nitrated paper left a lot less unburned bits than when I made .36 caliber cartridges using non-nitrated cigarette paper.


Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: G Dog on September 27, 2018, 08:31:25 PM
Mike's three photos above are great.  I'm using the second one for a screen saver, right now.

I'm going to get some perm-papers soon.  American Spirt cig paper is working well but something heavier sounds fun.  It's surprising how durable cig paper carts can be but the more durable the better.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: Gray Fox on October 26, 2018, 02:07:20 PM
Mike:

Does the guy have more of that mold for sale?  GF
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: mike116 on October 26, 2018, 02:51:01 PM
Yes,  Mark Hubbs  has a company called Eras Gone Bullet Molds.  You can Google him or search it on Facebook.    I'm away from my Computer  now or I would look up the link for you.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: scooby on November 26, 2018, 05:19:59 AM
Hey Mike, I noticed in your pictures that the bullet tips rest above the edge of the wood block. Will the cardboard sleeve still slide over the block?

Also, where can I find the source to pick up some of those cartridge containers. I would like to put a few of them to use. I did buy one that was made entirely of wood, but is was a bit pricey. It is a dandy and even has an area for 7 percussion caps.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: mike116 on November 26, 2018, 08:52:06 AM
Scoob,    I bought the cartridge boxes from Balazs Nemeth,  (CapandBall) from the YouTube video series.    I ordered from his website.  Here's the link.....  http://kapszli.hu/en/product/authentic-civil-war-revolver-cartridge-box-for-combustible-envelope-cartridges-44/
The boxes are nicely done and worth the price if you don't want to go to the trouble of making them yourself.   The price is & 7 euros which is about 8 bucks right now. 

The boxes have a recessed lid to accommodate the taller pointed bullets that is attached to the box with a piece of linen cloth to act as a hinge.   The cover slides on easily.
Title: Re: Conical bullet paper cartridges
Post by: scooby on November 26, 2018, 06:45:46 PM
Thanks for the contact info. Also, now that you mentioned the recessed lid, I can see it plain as day in the 2nd and 3rd pics and see how it will work perfectly. I simply was not paying close enough attention to detail.