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Long Guns => BPCR Reloading => Topic started by: ShotgunDave on May 07, 2019, 06:46:32 PM

Title: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 07, 2019, 06:46:32 PM
This will probably bore you to tears, but here's how I load up the Holy Black in brass shells for my SxS.

Here's everything I use to load em' up. Magtech brass hulls. Most of mine have the standard large pistol primer pocket. These 6 are from a buddy of mine, and they are opened up to use Winchester 209 primers. So that's what you see in the picture. I also have, FFg Goex powder, #8 chilled lead shot, nitro cards, fiber wads and over shot cards. The wads and cards are 11ga, because the Magtech brass is pretty thin. So I use the bigger cards and wads so they'll fit tight.That's basically it for the components.

The tools are a smattering of vintage shot shell reloading tools. A primer, fancy funnel, shot/powder dipper and a wooden push stick. I use a homemade punch to decap the used shells.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47748139522_0019a73262_z.jpg)


Here's my decapping punch. Just put it down inside the case and find the hole, then smack it with a hammer while the case is supported up off the table. I just use my vice opened slightly. The primers pop right out.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47748139422_17bda7d29a_z.jpg)


Here's the capping tool pushing a primer in.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47748139432_5d641f880c_z.jpg)


After they're all primed, it's time for powder. I slide the fancy funnel over the case, and put in 2 1/4 drams of Goex FFg using the dipper. The neat old funnel keeps everything going where it's supposed to.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46884127075_eb0357c3cb_z.jpg)


After the powder is in, I put an over powder nitro card. I don't know if it helps, but it doesn't hurt.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47748139322_6e9b7eacd2_z.jpg)


Then I put in 1 and a half fiber cushion wads. I like the shot column up higher in the shell. This gets it up there a little bit more. The funnel and the push stick really help.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47748139172_edcfea7281_z.jpg)


Next goes 1 1/8oz of #8 chilled lead shot, and the other half of the fiber wad. Then the over shot card on top. I write the number of the shot size on the card, so I know at a glance what the load is.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46884126835_2a1e7a7ceb_z.jpg)


When everything is in the shell, I seal the top with a bead of Ducco cement. I get it from Amazon. I like the Ducco because it dries fast and it's flammable. So it burns up good and doesn't leave any residue in the barrel.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47748139102_c51ee9eab4_z.jpg)


So there you have it, ready to shoot!

Hope it wasn't too boring.









Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: scooby on May 07, 2019, 08:20:24 PM
That is very cool Dave. I load mine almost the exact same way with vintage tools,  except I do not have a funnel like that. That funnel is a super idea. I have to find me one.

I have taken me quite a few game birds with the brass hulls and black powder.

Thanks a bunch for putting up the post. You are an outstanding forum member with lots to contribute.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 07, 2019, 08:26:20 PM
That is very cool Dave. I load mine almost the exact same way with vintage tools,  except I do not have a funnel like that. That funnel is a super idea. I have to find me one.

I have taken me quite a few game birds with the brass hulls and black powder.

Thanks a bunch for putting up the post. You are an outstanding forum member with lots to contribute.


Thank you very much Scooby. That means a hell of a lot to me coming from you.

If you go looking for one of these funnels, try eBay. I see them listed quite often. I've seen two types. One that slides inside the shell, and one that goes on the outside like mine.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: scooby on May 07, 2019, 08:52:39 PM
I will have a look see for one. Thanks for the tip. When I get time, and if I remember, I will post a pic of my vintage brass de-capper and primer seat tool. It is all brass with a Rosewood handle. Pretty cool.

Sorry I have not called yet, but this is my busy season on the property keeping up with cleanup and burning and I start at daylight and don't come in till dark on my days off and work from the second I change clothes till dark on my work days. But things are finally slowing down, so I will make that call some late evening soon.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 07, 2019, 08:56:14 PM
I look forward to it Scooby. I'm usually available just about anytime, and I'm a night owl.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Mad Dog Stafford on May 08, 2019, 04:51:56 AM
This is a GREAT write up!

A big Thanks to you for posting this up.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: mike116 on May 08, 2019, 05:11:04 AM
Good pics & write up Dave.  I have almost the same antique equipment and load pretty much the same way.

Scooby,  I think I have a spare 12 ga. funnel.   I'll check when I get a chance.   I'll send it if I find one.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Captainkirk on May 08, 2019, 06:02:54 AM
Bored? Heck no, these are the kinds of posts I love to read! Thanks for sharing the text and photos. Like was said, you are an outstanding contributor and we truly appreciate your participation here, Dave!
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 08, 2019, 08:35:44 AM
Thanks Fellas. I appreciate it very much.

I've learned a lot from reading all of you guy's posts. Every one of you. I just want to try and contribute something myself, like you all have.

The best that can happen is, it helps someone. The worst is, it starts a conversation and gets us all talking. Both are good things on my book.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Captainkirk on May 08, 2019, 09:15:27 AM
Dave, not gonna let you get away with that little 'teaser shot' in that last photo...you're gonna have to treat us to a bunch of pix of that shotgun and any others you own over in the "Scattergun" thread:

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?board=95.0
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 08, 2019, 09:23:32 AM
Dave, not gonna let you get away with that little 'teaser shot' in that last photo...you're gonna have to treat us to a bunch of pix of that shotgun and any others you own over in the "Scattergun" thread:

http://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?board=95.0

I was wondering if you we're going to request that!  (7+"

I'll get it posted up later today.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ssb73q on May 08, 2019, 09:34:45 AM
Thanks Fellas. I appreciate it very much.

I've learned a lot from reading all of you guy's posts. Every one of you. I just want to try and contribute something myself, like you all have.

The best that can happen is, it helps someone. The worst is, it starts a conversation and gets us all talking. Both are good things on my book.

Hi Dave, you sure do a lot of different firearms activity where you explain your work extremely well. I have learned a lot from you and thank you for your contributions. Your posts provide an archive for everyone to search, hopefully timeless. It's great to have a guy like you contributing to our forum.

Warm Regards,
Richard
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Captainkirk on May 08, 2019, 09:44:25 AM
I might add, show & tell threads are the best of both worlds. They give a detailed explanation of what one is doing, and why. And the old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words really rings true here. I would have been a bit apprehensive about loading brass hull shot shells prior to this thread, now you have me jonesing for a scattergun!
And like Richard says, the thread you [post today can still be encouraging and mentoring people years down the line. Thanks to you Dave, Richard, Scooby, and to all other members who have posted up some of the best reading material I've come across with regard to black powder, anywhere.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 08, 2019, 11:02:57 AM
Wow, thank you both Gentlemen. You have mentioned me in some pretty outstanding company. I'm honored and humbled.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Hawg on May 08, 2019, 12:21:54 PM
I don't have any brass hulls but that's pretty much how I load plastic hulls. I have that same powder/shot measure.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 08, 2019, 03:21:46 PM
You guys might find this interesting.

This box of shells has been in my family for a long time. When I was about 17 years old (I'm 55 now), my step brother and I were going to the shooting range with a couple buddies. We had my step Dad's Browning A5 with us, and we were going to see how it handled. My step brother remembered that his Dad had a couple boxes of shells in the closet, so we grabbed one and headed out to shoot the gun. This box is the one we left behind. Oddly enough, the paper hulls cycled perfectly through that A5.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47017737474_9e2d11b582_z.jpg)


Turns out, these shells belonged to my step Dad's father. He wasn't too pleased with us for shooting them either! He immigrated to the US in 1944 from then Yugoslavia. He was fleeing the Nazi's. My step Dad was 5 years old at the time. He bought those shells sometime shortly after that, so I'm guessing mid to late 40's. He used them in his J.Stevens Model 311 SxS to hunt rabbits and quail for dinner. I'm just glad we didn't shoot both boxes!

I now have the 311 in my possession too. But it's not shootable, thanks to my brother. Let's just say the barrels are a little too short now. I'd like to find a replacement set and put it back into action someday.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Captainkirk on May 08, 2019, 03:33:44 PM
Lovin' it, Dave!
I may have to post up some of my, err...'stuff' that was Dad's. You might get a kick out of it.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 08, 2019, 03:41:29 PM
Lovin' it, Dave!
I may have to post up some of my, err...'stuff' that was Dad's. You might get a kick out of it.

Of course I will!
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 08, 2019, 04:47:37 PM
Holy moly! I just searched eBay, looking for these old Federal shotshells. There's people trying to sell just the empty box for $50! Wonder what my full box is worth?!?!

I also have a Western Super X box of .410 paper shells. There's a couple missing, but it's nearly a full box. I think it's from the 50's.

I may need to re-think this hanging on to family heirlooms thing.  (7+"

Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: mike116 on May 08, 2019, 05:15:50 PM
Keep an eye on this auction.   https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewitem.php?item=1388 
It isn't over till the end of the month but it'll give you an idea what someone is willing to pay.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 08, 2019, 07:11:15 PM
Thanks Mike. I'll watch that.

Mine is in much better shape than that one too.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Hawg on May 08, 2019, 07:16:39 PM
I now have the 311 in my possession too. But it's not shootable, thanks to my brother. Let's just say the barrels are a little too short now. I'd like to find a replacement set and put it back into action someday.

Good luck. I looked for a set of full length barrels for my 311 made in 57 for years with no luck.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on May 08, 2019, 07:21:11 PM
I now have the 311 in my possession too. But it's not shootable, thanks to my brother. Let's just say the barrels are a little too short now. I'd like to find a replacement set and put it back into action someday.

Good luck. I looked for a set of full length barrels for my 311 made in 57 for years with no luck.

They pop up from time to time Hawg. I missed a set on eBay a few weeks ago. There's a mostly complete gun on GB right now. It's missing the forend and iron, but I don't need that. The opening bid is only $60. I doubt if anyone will bid on it. I messaged the seller and asked if he'd just send me the barrels if I win the auction. He said no, he wants the whole gun gone. I may still bid on it. I just didn't want to pay the $35 transfer fee to my FFL just to get the barrels.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Hawg on May 08, 2019, 10:14:44 PM
Not all 311 barrels will interchange. There's differences between some of the models. Mine is a 311 H. I found a few 311 barrels but none had the same latch as mine. No matter, I can't afford a set now anyway.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: mazo kid on November 09, 2019, 02:52:42 PM
I will have a look see for one. Thanks for the tip. When I get time, and if I remember, I will post a pic of my vintage brass de-capper and primer seat tool. It is all brass with a Rosewood handle. Pretty cool.....
Reviving an older thread... Scooby, is that the tool you got from me? I had taken some of those old shotgun shell boxes (full) to auction a few years ago, and got diddly for them. How many boxes of Arrow brand shells have you seen? Also some of those Federals. Guess it depends on if there are collectors bidding. Also, when I wanted brass shells, there were none available except the older ones. I paid upwards of $4.00+ per shell! Now I have a bunch! (and a sizeable investment).  I have a box of brass shotshells that were issued to guards during the Korean War loaded with buckshot!
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: AlaskanGuy on November 10, 2019, 07:50:54 AM
i loved the write up Dave.... i do most of what you do with a couple exceptions... i have a complete rockchucker press setup with the RCBS 12g die set. it works great for putting a tiny bit of a roll crimp on the end of the shell. helps hold the shells together. i have found some in my pocket a time of 2 when walking around through the brush where the glue alone did not hold... its a drag when you reach in your coat pocket to grab a shell and have a handfull of components and shot...lol. i dont use the rock chucker for decapping or anything else but the roll crimp. i also aneal the ends of the shells occasionally to keep them flexable... i just dip them in my lead pot when casting till they start to change color, pull them and give a tap.. let them cool..

as far as the components go, I did spend the 100 bucks to get a set of shells from Rocky Mountain Cart Co that were thicker and could use the standard components, and they work great with one exception.... they dont roll crimp, so if you have a glue failure your out of luck.

here is what my setup looks like...
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNVXKvwt/image.jpg)

and some of the different headstamps I use...
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbpvXjw1/image.jpg)

I really like the alcan zinc shells the best as they take a roll crimp nicely, dont have to be annealed, and are native 209 primer fed with no drilling...
if you use the roll crimp method, they will cycle real well in the 870 pump... the military actually issued them with 870's for quite a while with that slight roll crimp and dubble 00 buckshot. it is handy for ducks and such if you dont wanna use a single shot.. i only wish I had a double... none around here.

i jump shot these lesser geese last year with BP Brass shells in my 870..

(https://i.postimg.cc/gjCwgNQY/A6EBD9DF-E95C-4048-BC88-C4EAE0B67895.jpg)

yes I know, I was not wearing Camo.... most folks dont realize how dense the bush is.... they were feeding on the edge of the marsh, snuck up and 3 shots later when the smoke settled....

AlaskanGuy
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on November 10, 2019, 11:54:37 AM
Great stuff Mark! Thanks for showing it.

I'm going to have to invest in the RCBS roll crimp die. I HATE using glue for the reason you describe. I've had them come apart on me, in the middle of competition. I even had one come apart in the gun. That was embarrassing watching the shot roll out the end of the barrel onto to table.

I have been sanding the inside of the shells with 180 grit sandpaper after I clean them. It seems to have helped the glue stay stuck. But I'd rather crimp them.

Are you using the fiber wads Mark? Or are you using a modern plastic wad/cup?
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: Hawg on November 10, 2019, 12:26:12 PM
i only wish I had a double... none around here.

No pawn shops? I saw a very nice and very tight Lefever double at a pawn shop last week. They wanted $695.00 for it which I thought was too much but they would have probably come down on it;
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: AlaskanGuy on November 10, 2019, 01:16:54 PM
@Hawg... Nope.. I live remote.. lucky to have a real gas station within 100 miles..  ($!

@Dave.. yes sir... i use plastic when required for something by the load in brass shells with smokless, but fiber is my favorite for BP.. i carouse ebay and buy boxes of the old alcan 11g wads and overshot cards.. those boxes have a red stamp on the top of the box signifying use for all brass shotshells..

if you want to check something out, get a 10g plastic wad and test the fit then them Magtec shells... might give some of you some ideas... i do not put fiber wads over shot, only overshot cards...
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on November 10, 2019, 02:18:48 PM
Thanks for the info Mark. I use 10g wads and cards in my Magtech shells, because they are so much thinner than plastic hulls. A 12g wad would just rattle around inside the brass shell.

When you use fiber wads, how do you get the shot column up to the top of the shell, so you can roll crimp it? Are you using multiple wads? And what is the powder charge you are using? Sorry for all the questions. I'm just trying to get these loads down pat, and you sure seem to have done it!

Thanks again!
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: AlaskanGuy on November 11, 2019, 07:19:46 AM
i was talking about 10g plastic wads with shotcups. they fit tight in those magtec and my winchester all brass shells...

if I am using fiber, I i establish how far up I need to go and just stuff fiber wads in after the nitro card to bring the shot to the right height....

as far as powder weight, I just dont know. i use a adjustable BP old school dipper.. i set it for the weight shot I want, like 1 1/4, then dont change anything for dipping powder. a square load is a equal volume of BP to shot... so if I want a better pattern, i decrease the amount of powder by just a few grains... eyeball it. its not really rocket science like smokless... BP aint that way in my book unless you are paperpatching. especially with shotguns... if you do a level full dipper of shot, same dipper full of powder, your gunna be close... the rest comes through experience.. just remember BP is not smokeless, and is not as exacting as it is with smokeless.. you can make it that way if you wanna, but then your missing it in my book...

reason I hunt with BP is the issue of obtaining smokless powder here... i can make BP pretty well, been doing it a long time. durring the last shortage, smokeless was completely unobtainable, so homemade BP was what we could make. there is no source of flint around here in Alaska that I know of, so percussion caps and primer material are the real issue, but I have that covered as well..... and also have a die to form percussion caps.. and rebuild spent primers... that is why just about everying I reload for can go either smokeless or BP... just remember the golden rule of BP... equal amounts by volume are your starting points..

AG

Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: AlaskanGuy on November 11, 2019, 07:22:58 AM
oh... and one more thing... there should never be air between lead and powder. in shotshell or cartridges.. 
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: mazo kid on February 13, 2020, 11:10:37 AM
Mark, I have spent some time with R&D for making shot cups from file folder stock in the last couple of days. Do you get good patterns, that is no large holes, from just pouring shot in the brass shell? Am I wasting my time with the shot cups (now that I am getting close to what I want)? I know that is what most videos about loading brass shells show, no shot cup.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: AlaskanGuy on February 15, 2020, 12:59:46 PM
i got ok patterns with the 10g cups.. remember that my idea of a decent pattern is if it kills birds... i never did actually put it on paper in the magic circle more then 30 yards. if its within 30 yards and I am on target, its dead birds..  i also do not shot out at 40 yards either.. i spot and stalk. where is hunt birds is very different then the way most hunters shoot waterfowl. i hunt the ocean.. the ducks live in salt water, even the Canadian geese, mallards and so forth. i hike to my hunting area, glass for birds working the shoreline and the grass flats, and put the sneak on them from the tree line.. i never get a lot of birds in a single outing. i typically get 2 or 3 birds on an outing. once I shoot, i usually get 2 shots out before the entire mile wide marshy area explodes and all the birds leave. so i get first shot I try to align 2 birds and sneak to within 30 yards. i get the first shot hopefully with birds on the water, and the second while they jump and fly, then it is over for the hunt and the 5 mile hike home begins...  so i am pretty up close and personal. a good pattern to me is a dead bird... not very scientific... almost never go after a single bird. i sneak up on groups of 10 or more and let the singles pass unless that is all there is. because my hunting is all or nothing on limited numbers of birds, i am very targeted.  also, I have a older gun, and do not like shooting steel shot without a shot cup. if I am shooting lead, there is no shot cup and I am ok with it, but rarely do it unless I am using 410 brass shells.  the thought of waterfowling with 12g and no shotcup is kinda against my religion.


Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: AlaskanGuy on February 15, 2020, 01:09:15 PM
also, I try to combine hunts... the 5 mile hike is really good Sitka Blacktail country... many times I go and get more then one type of animal..  the big problem is harvesting too much and getting it all back to the trailhead and suv.  carrying even 1 of our small blacktails, and a couple geese, and 2 guns, can be quite a job  for this old guy. so prolly fine that I dont pattern more then 30 yards.... but I will say for better patterns, I have found to use slightly less powder then a square load.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: mazo kid on February 15, 2020, 03:40:25 PM
Thanks for the reply. This is the pattern I came up with, not perfect but it seems to work.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: mazo kid on February 15, 2020, 03:49:32 PM
I made a couple of dowels that are a slip fit in the brass shell. Fold the petals up, work the cup into the mouth and use the longer dowel to seat the cup on the shorter dowel in the shell. Push hard, rotating the dowel to make a good fit. Remove the cup and trim petals to length, about 3/4" long for 1 ounce of shot.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: mazo kid on February 15, 2020, 03:53:27 PM
Dowels used
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: AlaskanGuy on February 15, 2020, 08:35:45 PM
i think your on the right track Kid.  remember all my stuff comes from a strictly hunting prospective... there is no range around here. figure out what is working for you and define what your objective is.. are you shooting paper, clay, or live targets.. i like the idea of using the folder stock for a cup.. anything worth doing I say.. using what materials you have on hand is a huge bonus, and will totally help you in the long run... well done.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 16, 2020, 08:51:38 AM
I think this is a great idea. I always like making what I need over buying it. Self reliance is a virtue.

I anxiously await your results.
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: mazo kid on March 01, 2020, 05:34:53 PM
Dave, I don't know why I didn't see this before.... you used the hand priming tool to seat the 209 primers! I don't know why I didn't see/think of this before. That makes things much simpler.

 
Title: Re: 12ga Brass shells loaded with black powder
Post by: ShotgunDave on March 02, 2020, 08:26:17 AM
Dave, I don't know why I didn't see this before.... you used the hand priming tool to seat the 209 primers! I don't know why I didn't see/think of this before. That makes things much simpler.

Yessir, it works great on both types of primers. I use it on the 209's and the press for regular pistol primers.