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Colt Revolvers => Colt Collecting => Topic started by: ShotgunDave on February 05, 2020, 03:11:44 PM

Title: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 05, 2020, 03:11:44 PM
Hey fellas, let's not forget the Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum.

https://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php

There is a LOT of great information over there, and for the most part it's sitting idle. I really hate to loose it due to inactivity.

The Capt has made me an Admin on that board. I'm going to try to breath some life into it. I may even try to move some of that information over here.

So go over and have a look again, if you haven't been there in a while.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: G Dog on February 05, 2020, 03:20:38 PM
Lots of good pichers there, too.  Well worth a visit.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 05, 2020, 03:42:33 PM
Lots of good pichers there, too.  Well worth a visit.

Yessir, you're absolutely right.

I may bring some of the great pictures over here. If no one objects.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 05, 2020, 04:53:13 PM
No objections on my part.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: sourdough on February 05, 2020, 04:55:32 PM
What is the definition of a collector gun?

Jim
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Hawg on February 05, 2020, 05:15:00 PM
What is the definition of a collector gun?

Jim

Usually something rare or unusual and in pristine condition or nearly so. If very rare condition doesn't matter as much.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: sourdough on February 05, 2020, 06:11:08 PM
Usually something rare or unusual and in pristine condition or nearly so. If very rare condition doesn't matter as much.

I realize that concerning original 19th century, Colt 2nd/3rd Gen, etc., firearms. I am speaking about imports. There are many replicas that were made decades ago, to include various distributors, variations, short runs, etc. Do the many guns that Davis (RPRCA) collected that are fairly scarce qualify? Does condition matter?

Case in point: I have a Pietta 1851 Navy .36 4-screw cut for shoulder stock (AZ/1990) with brass BS/TG. Pietta has not made one of these in over 2 decades since they went to CNC machining. However, Pietta does market an 1861 Navy .36 4-screw cut for shoulder stock with a steel BS/TG (the strange part being that the BS does not have the shoulder stock attachment "divot").

What is to preclude someone from swapping out the 1861 barrel assembly for an 1851 Navy barrel assembly and calling it a "collector" item (other than the date code on the frame)?

(https://i.ibb.co/s6v83Dy/1851-Navy-4-screw-004a.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/8P13vBr/1861-Navy-4-screw.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

I have a Pietta Rigdon & Ansley parts gun that Pietta never made.

How would anyone know if Pietta ever made any of these "one-off" guns?

I have a genuine Pietta Dance .36 (one of 35 ever produced) that never appeared in any Pietta catalogs. Would that be a spurious revolver?

(https://i.ibb.co/zhrZk0m/Pietta-Dance-36-C00013-Cased-003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFfM51J)

Just asking the questions, sir.

Regards,

Jim


Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: scooby on February 05, 2020, 07:40:04 PM
Valid question Jim. The term collector has a very broad meaning to me. Not sure that I could narrow it down.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: G Dog on February 05, 2020, 07:44:09 PM
sourdough - Did that lovely Dance .36 come stock from Pietta with a square TG or did you swap it in?  At a production run of only 35 units I guess it qualifies as ‘collectable’.

Why do you wonder if it’s ‘spurious’?
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 05, 2020, 08:23:59 PM
To me, more than one gun qualifies as a collection. They don't need to be rare, old or original. It's nice to have experienced collectors weigh in on value or rarity, but if you have, say, a collection of all recent production Pietta confed repops that would certainly qualify as a collection in my book.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Hawg on February 05, 2020, 08:38:51 PM
To me, more than one gun qualifies as a collection. They don't need to be rare, old or original. It's nice to have experienced collectors weigh in on value or rarity, but if you have, say, a collection of all recent production Pietta confed repops that would certainly qualify as a collection in my book.

I believe he was asking what made a gun a collector item.

Sourdough you're asking questions I can't answer. Dr Davis only wanted guns for his museum that were collector pieces. Obviously he wanted the best specimens he could get. I had posted somewhere, probably TFL about a Pietta .36 Remington I had and he saw the post and sent me a PM asking me to call him. We had quite a lengthy conversation and I learned a lot from him. Long story short he wanted to buy my Pietta for his museum. He wanted it because it was imported by Pioneer Arms and he had never heard of Pioneer importing bp revolvers. The gun had a very obvious cylinder ring and the nipples had been changed but he didn't care. He wanted it for the markings and offered me a premium over a standard Pietta .36. This is the gun in question and as you can see it is far from pristine. So I guess the answer is it depends.

(https://i.imgur.com/9AOlPNcl.jpg)
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: sourdough on February 06, 2020, 06:21:05 AM
sourdough - Did that lovely Dance .36 come stock from Pietta with a square TG or did you swap it in?  At a production run of only 35 units I guess it qualifies as ‘collectable’.

Why do you wonder if it’s ‘spurious’?

I guess I should have worded my post a bit differently. I was only comparing it with "parts" guns like some of mine (and possibly created by others) to express the idea that just because it did not appear in a Pietta catalog it would not be a factory piece. I do not believe it to be spurious with the documentation provided by Davis. I started two threads recently about replica Dance guns on two different forums (below). It also explains the SB TG on both Pietta and (earlier) Uberti Dance revolvers.

https://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php/topic,3417.0.html

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/1862-j-h-dance-36-replica.166174/

Regards,

Jim
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: sourdough on February 06, 2020, 06:28:26 AM
Hawg, I appreciate your reply very much. Davis was very much into markings by different distributors for the RPRCA collection, and that fact is borne out with the Davis offerings on the October Country website.

Thus, it is why I posited my question. All I am looking for from the mods is an answer about what guns are acceptable for this section of the forum.

Nothing more.

Jim
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 06, 2020, 07:20:00 AM
Hawg, I appreciate your reply very much. Davis was very much into markings by different distributors for the RPRCA collection, and that fact is borne out with the Davis offerings on the October Country website.

Thus, it is why I posited my question. All I am looking for from the mods is an answer about what guns are acceptable for this section of the forum.

Nothing more.

Jim

Jim, any BP pistol or revolver is "acceptable". Whether others will view it as rare, unusual or collectible is up to them. I've posted about my R&S, Baby Dragoon, and Starr revolvers, though none are original nor unique (with the exception that both the Starr and R&S are out of production), with the exception of the Baby Dragoon, which Dr. Davis was quite interested in due to the unusual markings and lack of Gardone proof markings. There are no hard and fast rules about what qualifies as collectible though, and nobody is going to tell you that a gun you've posted won't be allowed. In fact, posting about some vague, unusual gun or markings is what spurs interest and can actually take a gun from being "that old thing" to something of rarity, due to the unusual markings or other features.
I would not post a garden variety Pietta Remington, but I sure would post my recent Santa Barbara Remington for that very reason.
What makes a gun "collectible"? Generally, rarity or unusual markings. But the Collector's Forum is no hangout for highbrow snobs, and anything you could post would be welcomed, including historical facts that not every gun collector knows about.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: sourdough on February 06, 2020, 07:52:21 AM
Thanks, Cap'n!

JIm
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 06, 2020, 08:05:40 AM
Jim, I was trying to come up with the right words for a reply, but the Capt beat me to it.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 06, 2020, 08:10:21 AM
Thanks, Cap'n!

JIm

Education through sharing, Jim. Dr. Davis never did get around to publishing his book (to my knowledge) and everything he shared on that forum is, well...it's on the forum, for everyone to read and share. I doubt we would find that info anywhere else, because Dr. Davis dug up his facts through personal experience, and shared it through his generosity. I learned an abbreviated history of the Centaure Colts over there from Long Johns Wolf and others. Our own Fingers McGee has one of the largest collections of stainless Colts and has shared many facts about it there.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Len on February 06, 2020, 08:18:48 AM
I've got two maybe "collectibles", one original Manhattan Navy series 1, with a low S/N 515 out of methinks a 4500-batch and one original Remington Rider .36 DA in good shape. Thing is I shoot them both on a regular basis. Are you supposed to shoot "collectibles" ???
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 06, 2020, 08:31:02 AM
I've got two maybe "collectibles", one original Manhattan Navy series 1, with a low S/N 515 out of methinks a 4500-batch and one original Remington Rider .36 DA in good shape. Thing is I shoot them both on a regular basis. Are you supposed to shoot "collectibles" ???

You can shoot them, clean them, light them on fire, whatever your pleasure. We would hope you would offer them for sale before torching them, though... ;)
Absolutely...post them up!
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 06, 2020, 08:31:36 AM
...... Are you supposed to shoot "collectibles" ???

They're your collectibles. Do as you see fit with them!

Me personally, I couldn't own a rare or desirable collectible. I would instantly ruin it's value because I'd shoot it.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 06, 2020, 08:45:06 AM

Me personally, I couldn't own a rare or desirable collectible. I would instantly ruin it's value because I'd shoot it.
You'd be surprised...value doesn't drop that much by shooting, only if you damage it. It wouldn't stop me from buying one either. My SB Remmy was fired...a lot. Didn't stop me from buying it and actually put the price more in my ballpark.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 06, 2020, 08:51:38 AM
You're right Capt. A well used "collectible" is actually more desirable to me. I can usually afford them.

My G.U. Navy is a prime example. First year gun, low serial number. In pristine shape, it would be cost prohibitive and I'd take flack for shooting it. Well used (as mine is) it's affordable and only a very few people care if I shoot it. It's a collectible, sort of. No one will want it to fill out a collection. It's too used. Therefore a shooter to me.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 06, 2020, 08:56:50 AM
Old airplanes were made to fly. Old cars were meant to be driven. Old guns were made to shoot.
Class dismissed.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: sourdough on February 06, 2020, 09:07:42 AM
Jim, I was trying to come up with the right words for a reply, but the Capt beat me to it.

Thanks, Dave. I believe that you, as a fellow parts changer, know exactly where I am coming from with my questions and posts here about recognizing such guns.

Jim
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 06, 2020, 09:14:50 AM
Jim, I was trying to come up with the right words for a reply, but the Capt beat me to it.

Thanks, Dave. I believe that you, as a fellow parts changer, know exactly where I am coming from with my questions and posts here about recognizing such guns.

Jim

Absolutely Jim. I sure do.

More and more people are realizing the "Lego" aspect of the new Pietta guns. They're creating guns that suit their own fancy. 20 years from now, there will be a bunch of guns on the market, that Pietta didn't create. How will people know if it came from the factory that way? Will they mistake it for a rare and valuable variant? I would like to think not. There is so much information floating around now, that it should be pretty easy to determine the provenance of just about any gun. Specially newer ones.

Like the Capt just posted. They're guns and they're made to be fired. So go forth and fire them!
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: scooby on February 06, 2020, 09:15:18 AM
I have seen many collecter pieces that have a lot of new dings and scratches from being shuttled from gun show to gun show. Seen others with surface rust from being handled by sweaty hands and then not getting wiped down for weeks on end. Those two factors cause more damage than shooting ever will. And most every one is in fired condition anyway. The exception is replica collectors. I could see the reason to not fire one of them in order to hold the value for resale or trade. The only unfired collectors that I have ever had a chance to buy have been reproductions. I am ok with individual decisions people make regarding whether to fire a collectable or not.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Fingers McGee on February 06, 2020, 11:12:26 AM
Thanks, Cap'n!

JIm

Education through sharing, Jim. Dr. Davis never did get around to publishing his book (to my knowledge) and everything he shared on that forum is, well...it's on the forum, for everyone to read and share. I doubt we would find that info anywhere else, because Dr. Davis dug up his facts through personal experience, and shared it through his generosity. I learned an abbreviated history of the Centaure Colts over there from Long Johns Wolf and others. Our own Fingers McGee has one of the largest collections of stainless Colts and has shared many facts about it there.


Dr. Davis passed all his notes and files over to Dennis Norton of the Facebook Cap & Ball Revolvers, Pistols and Rifles group. Dennis has loaded numerous files and articles in the files section of the groups page.  He is continuing Dr. Davis' work on getting the book published either in hard copy or E-Book. I've been passing some of my information to him and will be doing more.  The group iis not picture heavy like the Blackpowder Smoke forums are though. 

If I can get the attachment utility fixed so I can attach pictures, I've got lots of pictures to load on the collectors forum to help keep it running.  Probably need to put a link here so it is easy to find. 


Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 06, 2020, 11:46:11 AM
Fingers, thank you for doing that. It will be greatly appreciated.

There's a link in the very first post of this thread.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Miguel Loco on February 06, 2020, 02:29:57 PM
Old airplanes were made to fly. Old cars were meant to be driven. Old guns were made to shoot.
Class dismissed.

Amen
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: G Dog on February 06, 2020, 04:39:40 PM
Old airplanes were made to fly. Old cars were meant to be driven. Old guns were made to shoot.
Class dismissed.

I'm more comfortable avoiding the categorical and definitive.  Class is in session.
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 07, 2020, 05:00:33 AM
Quote from: G Dog link=topic=3503.msg37791#msg37791 date=1581035980
I'm more comfortable avoiding the categorical and definitive.  Class is in session.
[/quote

Fine...you take the reins, then. I'll be in the teacher's lounge... )l_
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: mazo kid on February 28, 2020, 11:28:15 AM
I have sold a lot of my original Colts but still have an original '60 and a few 1877 Thunderers and 1or 2 Lightnings. Think anyone would be interested in those?
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: sourdough on February 28, 2020, 12:55:48 PM
I would, for one! Time for show and tell!

Jim
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on February 28, 2020, 02:39:25 PM
I have sold a lot of my original Colts but still have an original '60 and a few 1877 Thunderers and 1or 2 Lightnings. Think anyone would be interested in those?

Absolutely!!!!!!

Show em' off!!!
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Captainkirk on February 28, 2020, 08:10:14 PM
Yes sir!
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Fingers McGee on February 29, 2020, 03:59:21 PM
I gotta few
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: Fingers McGee on June 03, 2020, 12:54:39 PM
How about a SS Sheriffs model 1851 Navy with a square trigger guard and not cut for a stock? From the Davis Collection. Eminently collectible - it the only one I've ever seen.  Shoot or no?

Or, better yet, a G&U sheriffs model Leech and Rigdon made in 1961.  Unfired and the only one known in existence.  From the Davis Collection.  Shoot or no?



 
Title: Re: The Black Powder Revolver Collector Forum
Post by: ShotgunDave on June 03, 2020, 03:39:10 PM
Those are too cool! I REALLY like the short L&R.

It's probably wise not to shoot them, but I'd have a helluva time not doing it!