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Author Topic: EMF Paterson on sale  (Read 25587 times)

Offline ssb73q

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #135 on: April 24, 2019, 06:07:22 AM »
Hi, I was a bit reluctant to try drilling a hole in the end of the Paterson arbor because I thought that arbor steel was hard. This morning I gave it a try. There does seem to be a surface hardening, but once penetrated with a centering drill, the drilling with a #25 drill went easily. The hole was tapped 10-32 and a brass screw inserted to set the cylinder/barrel gap. Looking for an easier way to adjust gap, I have on order thread locking set screws from McMaster-Carr. There is a blob of nylon on the side of the set screw that holds the screw in place. If this system works well, future arbor length fixes will be done this way instead of JB Weld a brass button that need filing down for gap adjustment.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #136 on: April 26, 2019, 04:37:22 AM »
Hi, the locking 10-32 set screws arrived and a 3/8" long set screw was installed in the end of the Pietta Paterson arbor. Setting the gap is very simple. A 10-32 screw moves 0.03125" per single turn. Measure the gap with a large initial gap and then calculate on how many turns down, and/or partial turns is needed to set the gap desired. Works great, easy peasy. The barrel was then removed from the frame and reinstalled a number of times with the wedge hammered in. The gap holds well after many barrel removal cycles.

The set screw:

Regards,
Richard
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 04:44:15 AM by ssb73q »
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #137 on: April 27, 2019, 06:19:41 AM »
Hi, the Lubriplate arrived yesterday. Something I noticed in the couple of available Paterson shooting videos is that the user used overball lube. I was using lubed felt wads.

My problem with the Pietta Paterson is that the revolver fouls causing the cylinder to drag and barrel removal difficult. The Paterson has no forcing cone and powder residue is driven between the arbor and barrel arbor hole. Powder residue is also driven between the arbor and cylinder arbor hole. That fouling is sufficient to have the cylinder drag after just a couple of shots and make barrel removal difficult after a cylinder is fired.

I never liked the use of grease on BP firearms because hot soapy water doesn't completely remove all the grease. Always used Ballistol that is water miscible. However with the Paterson, compromises must be made. The main question I now have is what is the best method to minimize fouling in the Paterson while still allowing easy cleanup.

I noticed that in the Paterson shooting videos that overball lube was used. That has me thinking that maybe the overball lube is driven between the cylinder and arbor minimizing fouling?

I think that some experimentation is now required. Since I have five cylinders that can be loaded, maybe testing different lubing methods would prove useful. Maybe load one cylinder with a lubed wad, one cylinder with 50/50 beeswax/olive oil overball lube, one cylinder with overball Crisco, one cylinder with overball Lubriplate, and one cylinder with lubed wad but with Lubriplate placed on the arbor. Inspect the function of the revolver after each cylinder shot and clean the arbor for the next test cylinder.

What do you think?

Regards,
Richard

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Offline Captainkirk

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #138 on: April 27, 2019, 09:05:50 AM »
Sounds like a plan. You are the only one with multiple cylinders so you are elected.
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Offline G Dog

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #139 on: April 27, 2019, 10:02:03 AM »
Experimentation is great, of course, but I would not use lithium grease over (or under) ball.  It works great on the arbor/cylinder pin, action parts, hand channel, etc. (particularly the arbor) but creating lithium vapor/grease smoke by putting it in the chambers is not a good idea.  I would avoid that.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 10:03:37 AM by G Dog »
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #140 on: April 27, 2019, 01:40:38 PM »
Hi G Dog, that's a good point. All the cylinders have already been loaded, but I will wipe out the Lubriplate on the one cylinder and replace it with Dow Corning vacuum grease. The Dow Corning is a very stiff silicone grease. We have snow for a couple of days so shooting this foul experiment is a few days away.

BTW, I'm not looking forward to smelling Crisco vapor.   (l" (l"

Regards,
Richard
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #141 on: April 29, 2019, 08:50:11 AM »
Hi, the five Paterson cylinders were fired with the above schedule. The results:

Sagebrush wads, Ballistol - Cylinder rotates easily, barrel removal difficult.
50/50% Beeswax/Olive oil, Ballistol - Cylinder rotates easily, barrel almost impossible to remove - needed to wedge it off.
Sagebrush wads, Lubriplate - Cylinder rotates easily, barrel almost impossible to remove - needed to wedge it off.
Crisco, Ballistol - Cylinder rotates easily, barrel removal difficult.
Dow Vacuum grease, Ballistol - Cylinder rotates easily, barrel almost impossible to remove - needed to wedge it off.

So what was learned? First, opening up the cylinder/barrel gap to 0.008 allows the cylinder to rotate freely irrespective of the lube on the arbor. Second, no lube tried allows the barrel to be easily removed from the arbor. "almost impossible to remove" required a wooden wedge hammered between the cylinder and barrel to allow removal.

I'm at a loss to what to try next. Put rifling in the barrel arbor hole? Ream the arbor barrel hole larger? I'm a bit reluctant to do anything that permanently modifies the Paterson, new parts aren't cheap. Any and all ideas are welcome.

While this experiment was not particularly useful, I did get to shoot the Pietta Patterson a few times. Even got a couple of 1.25" groups from 25yds. This Paterson Texas can really shoot.  (7& (7&

Regards,
Richard
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Offline sourdough

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #142 on: April 29, 2019, 05:24:11 PM »
I have never seen any type of Paterson, let alone shot one, but if it is a Pietta, the revolvers produced by them since going to CNC machining ~2000 (1851 Navy/1860 Army/1861 Navy) the respective parts are like the LEGOs of the BP revolver world.

I have an ASM 1860 Army .44 that I did a try-fit of Pietta 1851 Navy barrel and cylinder on the arbor, and vice-versa. The ASM arbor was about .001" smaller in diameter than the Pietta arbor.

This has nothing to do with a Paterson, but my point is that the barrel lug arbor hole may be just slightly smaller in diameter than the arbor.

I see nothing wrong with slightly enlarging the arbor hole with lapping compound until you get a good slip fit with the arbor, as the wedge secures the barrel to the arbor. I think no one would know the difference. I have no idea why you would be getting fouling that deep into the arbor recess to disallow disassembly by hand. .0008" barrel/cylinder gap is still very tight.

Just my $.02 worth.

Regards,

Jim

Offline G Dog

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #143 on: April 29, 2019, 11:15:25 PM »


... that the barrel lug arbor hole may be just slightly smaller in diameter than the arbor.

I see nothing wrong with slightly enlarging the arbor hole with lapping compound until you get a good slip fit with the arbor,  by hand.


I have an older Pietta 1860 who’s barrel was not re-joining the frame without some leather mallet taps at the muzzle, so I smoothed out the frames arbor channel with some fine paper glued to a dowel and polished the forward end of the arbor too.  That reduced the friction just enough so that I now get a congenial press-fit / slip-fit like what Sourdough just described.

I too wonder how fowling would get up into the arbor channel.  Is that a feature of the Paterson, do you suppose?
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #144 on: April 30, 2019, 04:31:42 AM »
Hi G Dog, the Paterson arbor is 0.004" smaller diameter than the opening arbor hole of the barrel, 0.434". There theoretically shouldn't be a fit problem if the barrel hole is actually 0.004" larger for the full depth. I ordered a 0.434" reamer to make sure that the hole is the same dimension all the way in.

I have noticed that the metal of the barrel at the rear of the wedge is coining and narrowing the barrel arbor hole at that location. A file was used to remove the excess metal from the inside of the hole at the wedge opening. Shooting the Paterson has required the wedge to be seated deeper after every shooting outing. I have already widened the wedge a number of times to have a snug barrel fit to the arbor. I'm beginning to wonder if 20gr powder loading is too much for the Paterson.

My last shoot tested lubricants. Lubricants didn't do well to minimize fouling. It's time to go the other direction and try no lubes at all. I will load up the cylinders with different powder, 15gr. Triple 7, Black Mz, and Olde Eynsford will be tested to see if there is a powder that minimizes fouling when no lube is used.

I have seen other reports were removal of the Paterson barrel was difficult because of fouling. The rear of the barrel bore opening is flat. Later Colt designs created a forcing cone and a narrow external end at the forcing cone. Colt also added a spiral cut in the arbor to take up fouling in later gun models. In hindsight, the Paterson was a revolver with design failure built in. The Paterson put Colt into bankruptcy.

Regards,
Richard
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 04:39:08 AM by ssb73q »
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Offline ssb73q

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #145 on: April 30, 2019, 10:26:29 AM »
Hi, tested the Paterson with different powders and no lube at all. Big mistake!! Triple 7 and Black Mz allowed good cylinder rotation, but needed some effort to wedge the barrel off the arbor. Olde Eynsford locked up both the cylinder and prevented barrel removal from the arbor. I needed to soak the barrel and frame to get the barrel off the arbor.

What was learned? Arbor lubrication helps and Ballistol seems to be the best to allow barrel separation from the Paterson arbor.

While not a useful experiment to solve my barrel removal issue, it's always fun to shoot the Paterson. I did notice that the Triple 7 had some good intensity (recoil) and would be useful for serious Paterson use. Even with 15gr of powder the wedge got battered again and will need to be hammered back into shape.

Live and learn, if you want a BP revolver that will shoot and shoot without issues, get the 1851. The 1851 is probably the best revolver that Colt ever produced.

While the Paterson has issues, it returns me to a time when the Comanche faced the Paterson. It's hard to tell you how I return to that time and take out Comanches on my steel targets. You probably have no idea of what I am talking about? That's Okay.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #146 on: April 30, 2019, 10:46:40 AM »
Hello Richard,
         I believe you may have found the problem in that the arbor hole or perhaps the arbor itself is tapered in the wrong direction. This would allow the powder residue to load up deep inside the hole and then there'd be no clearance to separate the two parts. Perhaps tapering the arbor down a few thousands towards it's end might help the problem.  And you're probably considering cutting a forcing cone in the barrel breech and grooving the arbor. Best to try one thing at a time like you're doing so you can really isolate the main culprit and then we can all gain from that knowledge.
  It sounds like that wedge is made of dead soft steel and could use some heat treat.

Brad

Offline Captainkirk

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #147 on: April 30, 2019, 10:47:19 AM »
While the Paterson has issues, it returns me to a time when the Comanche faced the Paterson. It's hard to tell you how I return to that time and take out Comanches on my steel targets. You probably have no idea of what I am talking about? That's Okay.

Regards,
Richard

I think I know. While I've not had the opportunity to shoot it yet, Every time I cycle the action on my Winchester '66 I am transported back to overturned wagons, fending off waves of incoming charging savages on pinto war ponies.
Some book or film must be buried deep in my subconscious. (@+
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Offline G Dog

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #148 on: April 30, 2019, 12:07:59 PM »


 It's hard to tell you how I return to that time and take out Comanches on my steel targets. You probably have no idea of what I am talking about? That's Okay.

Regards,
Richard

I’m confident that most all the guys here know just what you’re talking about.  We grew up knowing.  It’s genetic memory, American collective unconscious or something Jungian like that.  Peace & Love for everyone ... but still ...

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Offline sourdough

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Re: EMF Paterson on sale
« Reply #149 on: April 30, 2019, 01:12:27 PM »
Even with 15gr of powder the wedge got battered again and will need to be hammered back into shape.

Live and learn, if you want a BP revolver that will shoot and shoot without issues, get the 1851. The 1851 is probably the best revolver that Colt ever produced.

Regards,
Richard

As I previously stated, I have zero Paterson experience. I totally agree with your statement concerning 1851 Navy .36 "type" replicas, primarily Pietta (I have 8, primarily Confederate types). If the wedge is being battered when you shoot it, to me that is indicative of a problematic fit between the arbor length, arbor recess depth, and wedge. I see no other reason as to why the wedge is being battered if it is properly driven into place (as Sam Colt insisted) prior to shooting the gun.

Just a thought, but you might contact Mike Brackett  http://www.goonsgunworks.com/ for his valued opinion.

Regards,

Jim