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Author Topic: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges  (Read 553 times)

Offline shooter13

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1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« on: May 06, 2019, 06:00:24 PM »
For those of you who have rolled your own for your Uberti Army models, have you found better success using a .454 or a .4457 ball?  I do not want to use a coned bullet of any type.

Thanks for your consideration.

Offline mike116

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2019, 06:59:22 PM »
I have only used .454 round balls in paper cartridges.   They work fine in both Uberti and Pietta revolvers but I prefer conical bullets these days.

Offline shooter13

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 09:57:15 AM »
Thanks, Mike!

Online Gray Fox

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2019, 04:00:43 PM »
Mike:  Which conicals do you like in .44 and .36 that would work with paper cartridges?  GF

Offline mike116

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2019, 05:03:06 PM »
Mike:  Which conicals do you like in .44 and .36 that would work with paper cartridges?  GF

Hi GF,    I use the reproduction civil war bullets offered by Eras Gone Bullet Molds.     
For .44 cal I use the Johnston & Dow bullets   http://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/johnston_and_dow__44_caliber.html
I use both the Richmond Laboratory design  http://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/36_cal_richmond_laboratory.html    and the Colt Cartridge Works design  http://erasgonebullets.webstarts.com/colt_cartridge_company_36_caliber.html in .36 cal cartridges.    All 3 of these designs make excellent cartridges that load easy and straight.

Offline G Dog

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2019, 06:14:41 PM »
Hi shooter - either .454 or .457 will work well for paper home rolls as will .451 in either Pietta or Uberti.  When making carts or loading loose with round ball I prefer .454 because they tend to pattern better than .451 and a .457 is harder to press home.

Have you used conicals?  If not, try them out.  I like RNFP with a generous meplat.  It may be that the Civil War guys misconceived flight and terminal ballistics with the pointy bullet design.  Cone shapes are the most aerodynamic but are max hydrodynamic too.  RNFPís also fly quite well at pistol distances  -  but on impact produce much more tissue damage and general destruction.

This is probably/maybe why Elmer Keith and friends thought round ball a better antipersonnel bullet than CW era pickets.

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Online Gray Fox

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2019, 06:50:55 PM »
I've read several folks on here and the '58 site who say they use 200 or 225 grain conical bullets designed for .45 Colt in their C&B revolvers.  I can cast these, but I'm wondering what diameter you guys are sizing them to for this to work.  I would cast them of pure lead, not some alloy.  I have Pieta '58s and 1860 Armies and a pair of Ruger Old Army revolvers.  GF

Offline mike116

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2019, 07:48:45 PM »
I've tried them but they are hard to load.  The bullet tends to tilt under the loading ram.   The Eras Gone Bullets are heeled and eliminate the loading problems.

Offline bigted

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2019, 10:09:51 AM »
First off I load .454 balls in my 44's. My paper cartridges are made with zig zag cig papers. After I roll em, I dip the ball and about 1/8th inch of the paper in my bp lube. This is enough lube to keep them running.

My experience with conicals is mirrored with the round balls, however, I get nowhere near the accuracy from them. They load nearly as easy as the ball cartridges.

All in all however, my shooting has me convinced, and every experiment has confirmed, that the MOST accurate in EVERY c&b revolver has been , with NO exception, loading lose powder, ball, and a good stiffer lube OVER the ball.

This will meet with naysayers I am sure, however if top notch accuracy is desired above everything, then load lose powder, ball and OVER ball lube. As messy as it is ... even plain ol Crisco will suffice for over ball lube.

I have attempted the grease soaked felt wads and this by far the least successful way I have loaded any of my revolvers. NEVER have had luck with the wad thinking compared to the lose powder and lube over the ball.

As an experiment I have shot lose powder n ball with no lube whatsoever with good success if only a cylinder or two is what is desired. Accuracy goes south very soon shooting with no lube at all, but it works ... especially for a single cylinder full.

Back to the question tho ... full .454 pure soft lead balls is my choice in the Armys.

The very best accuracy load has always been ... either in paper carts or lose components ... has been 20 to 23 grains ol E 3Fg powder followed by enough cornmeal to put the final loaded ball rite at the mouth of the cylinder as close as possible to the barrel forcing cone as can be and still turn the cylinder. Not the most power mind you ... but in Colt Armys and Rem new model Armys ... this has been a consistant performer for me.
BIGTED

Offline G Dog

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2019, 08:24:39 PM »
Hi Bigted, I have no nay saying to say.  You make valid observations.

If a lubed felt wad is in contact with the projectile they often adhere and travel together. In using felt wads many of us have made two holes on paper with just one shot.  At moderate range, shooting at lumber chunks, the wad will often travel right into the hole made by the ball or bullet.  A greasy charred piece of burnt felt stuck to the bullet is something less than aerodynamic and definitely sends accuracy to hell.

Iíve noticed that putting a little corn meal or CoW over a lubed wad will usually prevent adhesion.  A lubed wad powdered with cornstarch will help with this, too.
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Offline scooby

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2019, 09:54:48 PM »
Agree fully Ted. Loose powder and round ball have always proved more accurate for me. I shoot a lot of round balls out of my revolvers with no lube, as well as a whole lot of round balls with over lube. Hell, I do it all with these six shooters. Dry conicals and lubed conicals on top of loose powder, paper cartridge conicals and paper cartridge round balls, both lubed and dry, and hand cut lubed felt wads under the ball. Depends on my mood. Regardless, I will always promote loose powder and round ball, over lube or not, for top notch accuracy.

Offline ssb73q

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2019, 08:47:30 AM »
Hi scooby, something I have never fully understood is why pure lead projectiles with BP or sub never leads the the bore. Shooting modern handguns with lead bullets almost always causes leading in the bullet entrance area of the bore. That never happens with replica C&B revolvers. The modern lead bullets are usually hardened lead.  Maybe that's the reason, the difference?  Muzzle velocity is similar in both modern and C&B.

In the past I have shot C&B without any lube and never had bore leading. Accuracy was good. One of the subs I use, Black Mz, says to not to use any lube in that the the burning powder provides all the lube required, mostly water.

Regards,
Richard
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Offline Yolla Bolly Brad

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2019, 11:37:19 AM »
Richard,
           That's an issue I've also had with lead bullets in high pressure smokeless loads. I took the easy route and use gas checks to stop the leading in the  forcing cones of my modern revolvers. I just didn't want to invest the time into casting bullets out of softer lead to see if that would solve the problem.

Offline Hawg

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2019, 03:29:28 PM »
Richard,
           That's an issue I've also had with lead bullets in high pressure smokeless loads. I took the easy route and use gas checks to stop the leading in the  forcing cones of my modern revolvers. I just didn't want to invest the time into casting bullets out of softer lead to see if that would solve the problem.

It will increase the problem. Pure lead is good until you get past 1000 FPS.  After that it needs to be harder.  I tried using pure lead in my paper cutter Sharps. That bore leaded up like you wouldn't believe. BP revolvers won't lead the bore because they never reach those velocities.
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Offline Captainkirk

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Re: 1860 Army with paper Cartridges
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2019, 08:57:10 AM »
I've never experienced any leading issues in any of my revolvers. I'm hoping to avoid them in my Yellow Boy rifle by using bullets that are not pure lead.
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